045 Correcting Our Own Faults (In A Healthy Way)

Seeing our own faults can be challenging, but with the right tools, we can keep a healthy outlook and use that self-knowledge to act on positive change.

00:00 Matrix 4 Spoiler Alert!
04:29 How To Discover And Deal With Your Own Faults (In a healthy and effective way)
24:23 Once you discover something about yourself, you must then determine its value to you and if it's worth putting in the work to change
27:49 Improving the skill of fault recognition and change results in a shortening of the gaps between mistake, ownership, and action to correct
54:23 Our brains learn through association, so in order to change our relationship to past events, we often have to work to change the associations we have
01:02:24 If you're seeking advice, it's valuable to develop the skill of detachment. Don't ask for an opinion if you're desiring a certain answer
01:15:31 TAKEAWAYS: Actions steps to recognizing and correcting our own faults

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Transcript

Tali: 0:56

I am Tali Zabari. Hi, I'm

Cody: 0:58

Cody Limbaugh.

Tali: 0:59

Welcome to the Live All Your Life podcast. Rolling. Hi honey. Hi. How you doing today? Good.

Cody: 1:28

Yeah. What was your favorite part of the Matrix? Four

Tali: 1:32

Oh. Oh, like of that specific movie Uhhuh. Okay, so the end credits no, I, I have a hard time answering this only because I really didn't pay that much attention to this movie cuz I was kind of checked out immediately. Oh gosh. Maybe the Neil Patrick Harris parts, like he's a very endearing guy even though he was the villain. Yeah. Ooh, spoiler alert. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I, yeah, I like him as an actor and so I thought it was fun that he was in the movie. Mm-hmm. Other than that, I was not into it at all.

Cody: 2:27

Yeah. I was supremely disappointed.

2:30

Supremely.

Tali: 2:30

Okay. Yes. Well, I'm glad that you're on my level cuz I felt bad for ragging on it as much as I was and we had watched it in two installments. So I would say there was like more opportunity to rag on it than with most films because there was a a few days where we, you know, took a break from it until we could watch it again and I was really resistant and had a lot of reasons to not watch it. So I apologize if I ruined that for you.

Cody: 3:01

No, I don't think you did. I just think there was a lot of. Cheap, cheesy dialogue, storyline, everything was very surface level, which is o the opposite of what you expect from a Matrix movie. Right. Especially after waiting 20 fucking years for one. It just annoy it. It was, it was very disappointing to me.

Tali: 3:22

Well, there's a trend right now to reboot a lot of these stories. You know, star Wars mm-hmm. Is one of them, you know, to appeal to a new generation. Yeah. And, and I haven't

Cody: 3:33

been keeping up on all the Star Wars stuff, but I, I've been told it's really good. Yeah. That's the thing, is that at least that it seems like they're going deeper into storylines on that, whereas this seemed super surface level like and

Tali: 3:47

kind of what, I don't know if frivolous is the right word, but it was like, what's the point? Yeah. This doesn't add anything. Yeah. It didn't add anything. And the original is so genius. Yeah. That. I think it really should have stood alone. I might have even said that in the last podcast that we recorded, but none of the others lived up to it. No, they really didn't. No. And I think that everyone in the film industry should just hear this loud and clear that if you've got something great, like don't fuck with it. I know there's like more money to be made and sequels to be made, but come up with another idea or buy a new idea or whatever it is. But yeah, it kind of cheapened the whole series. Yeah. I had wanted to see the second one for such a long time because I had missed, I had attempted to watch it a few times when it first came out and you know, for one reason or another, things got interrupted and I never got to finish it and I was disappointed. Yep. Yeah. So yeah. No when to end it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Seinfeld 1 0 1.

Cody: 5:06

Leave on top.

Tali: 5:08

Leave on top. Exactly.

Cody: 5:10

Well, since today's topic was your idea, you want to introduce where we're at cuz I'm not sure that you and I are interpreting things the same way. So I'll let you start and then we'll see where it goes.

Tali: 5:21

Okay. Sorry, I'm wincing cuz I just like popped something in my wrist trying to readjust and ow that hurts so much. Okay. So I thought of this when I was on a walk with a new friend the other day. And I, I'm not exactly sure how this came up, but many times on this podcast I've alluded to my quote unquote breakup with weightlifting. And that was really nothing to do with the sport, but it was more about like leaving my team and ending a relationship with my coach. It is also a very good friend and it's. It, it was a pivotal moment for me my involvement in this sport and I've been kind of trying to figure out how to interact with it ever since in a way that feels good and that I can build off of. But the whole story came up and this friend of mine had kind of a similar story in a different sport. And I just started to notice that the way that I was feeling about the whole situation or the way that I was telling the story was kind of stale. I've had conversations around this so many times and the thing about telling stories that can be gone unnoticed, I think is that, you know, over time we have opportunities to change the way that we feel about things or sometimes time itself can heal a lot. And I just. Was able to throw in another element to this story where it was, you know, I was able to take some accountability for my own actions. And the way that I had put it was, you know, I, this could have been alleviated with a conversation. And instead I decided to just like, burn it all down. I just decided to send an email to quit and leave with a lot of drama, you know? And I know that severing relationships in a dramatic way, or in an or a very final way is something that I'm at fault for multiple times in my life, and that's not something that I wanna be known for. It's not something that I want to do anymore. And so there was just a different air to the story to end it. Like, you know, I, I wish I would've handled that differently. Mm-hmm. Because, I don't want to feel at the mercy of the narrative that was true to me almost four years ago now, or probably about four or five years ago now. Mm-hmm. And so the topic for today that I wanted to explore is what do we do when we learn about our own bad behavior or qualities of ours that we don't resonate with? Or if we've ever gotten critique about the way that we handle something, what do we do with that information? What can we do with that information? And in that story, my toxic trait is to sever relationships, ask questions later, you know, rather than maybe giving that per person the benefit of the doubt or maybe taking a preliminary step that could have changed the tides. Yeah. So does that clear it up for you? A bit. Yeah. Okay. I think there's still a lot of different ways to interpret the sort or circumstances. The, it hindsight, I mean, you have some distance now. Oh yeah. So I think that helps. But I was thinking about a similar concept to this, just on a little kind of stranger level.

Cody: 9:19

Stranger, stranger the other day. I just think it's, I've been kind of thinking about consciousness a lot lately, and, and these are, you know, the idea of what consciousness is has alluded philosophers and scientists alike for centuries, and I think it's kind of strange that we have this duality about us. Like that there are certain things about ourselves that we. Don't agree with or don't like. And it just seems like an odd thing to, to be in one's head and disagree with yourself on something. It's just a very bizarre concept if you think about it.

Tali: 10:00

Well, there's so much conditioning that we are responding to, and as we get older, like new ideas, new opportunities or circumstances allow you to reflect on that and be like, Ooh, this doesn't really fit. Mm-hmm. Or the way that I'm acting is probably more appropriate for a kindergartner. Yeah. Yeah. That I wish people would tap into a little bit more. Yeah. And they realize that.

Cody: 10:27

Yeah, for sure. Well I think that your question like what do we do when we discover something about ourselves that we don't agree with is, is that kind of the gist of what you're. Yeah. Say it again. I

Tali: 10:49

don't agree with or have outgrown or it's not serving us anymore. Mm-hmm. I wish it were as easy as just to be like, well, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Yeah. It's not that easy.

Cody: 11:02

Yeah. We are patterns and we behave like patterns and the deeper that groove has been, the harder it is to get out of the pattern for sure.

Tali: 11:11

But even to, I don't know if it would be taking it a step further, but like you can really change the narrative of your past as well, which I know we've talked about on the podcast in terms of how we wanna feel about things. We have opportunities to change that and it can also change the way that we see our past or experience our past and let it influence our futures. You know, there was a long time where I've told that story, but I was still so angry about it that I never saw my part in it or. You know, whether it was warranted or not. Like this is something that comes up a lot as kind of a debate in this story of whether it was the right thing to do or not, or, you know, they needed to know what they were doing wrong or mm-hmm. They didn't deserve my effort or loyalty or whatever the fuck it was at the time. I feel like all of that doesn't matter because I can't control any of those people. I can't control anything that they think about me at this point. All I can do is, you know, I've been trying to reconcile for this for fucking years now, and I'm like so tired of it. I'm tired of that being my story. And so, yeah. I'm just trying to think about like, what are the opportunities here that it can afford us? Yeah.

Cody: 12:35

Well I think the obvious answer is just to try to recognize it sooner the next time something like that comes around. I know that one of the things that I've. I mentioned before as well, but I, it's kind of something that's on the forefront for me over the last few years is that a lot of the conflicts that I've encountered in my life, I would say most of the bridge burning type of conflicts with friends, has been a fault of mine, of the need to be liked causing me to be either non-communicative or miscommunicated. And I use that word because I, I'm never intentionally dishonest, but I think in my past, my need to be liked has caused me to like skirt around the truth or skirt around conflict to, to the detriment of the relationship, to the, for sure, to the point where I am easily demonized in. Certain circles for taking certain actions that were misunderstood or Totally.

Tali: 13:42

Or you really thought was probably for their

Cody: 13:44

benefit. Yeah. I've done many things where I thought I was trying to do something for someone's benefit and then they end up kind of like throw a lot of hate my way.

Tali: 13:54

I would definitely say that that's the same in this situation. Like the only reason I was pushed so far to quit is cuz I didn't say anything before then.

Cody: 14:04

Well, that may be a little bit of a revisionist version of history too, because I remember many conversations of you being dismissed like that. That was the whole point of a lot of the conflict was that you were very well, I thought there was a lot of coaches were very, your coaches were very dismissive of you even though you had as much or more experience than all the coaches on the team. Like you were, you were. Sort of an unequal status role as far as your experience level in your coach and age and all age and coaching and everything. Yeah. There was like no reason for them to have, so this sort of like superiority complex over you.

Tali: 14:42

It's true, but like if you remember, I ended up calling my coach for a chat after the dust settled cuz I just like couldn't fucking sleep after that. And I think about what if I had that conversation as ugly as it was, it was not a productive conversation. Mm-hmm. But what if I had had it before I quit? Yeah. You know, that's the problem with this way of handling it, is that I have like declared my stance, drawn my line in the sand, thrown them out, and then I'm kind of like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Let me explain myself. Yeah. I

Cody: 15:23

guess I thought you had, I thought you had tried to approach it before.

Tali: 15:27

There had been times in the moment mm-hmm. When that, when instances like that happened, like being shut down and like publicly shut down, which was very embarrassing and kind of shocking to me when it happened. But I can't say that those responses were probably very good on my part, either like acting out of a place of embarrassment or anger or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like, those aren't productive either, you know? Like I never set boundaries and I think that that only comes with experiences like this. And I wanna respect that too. Like, I don't want to cover up what took place or how I felt about it or try to change that necessarily, but I'm also aware that. There is a part that I'm not proud of that I would like to change moving forward. And so it's not to erase what happened or not to, you know, explain it all away. It's just, I, I'm so tired of being angry about it and I want to know, okay, how can I use this experience? Cuz it's affected me really deeply. And I, my next is just my next note is just like, I guess you just try better next time. Like, knowing that about yourself. Yeah. Like knowing that I stuff things down in order to appease other people. Mm-hmm. And to be liked, like you were saying. But if something pisses me off, rather than just be like, well, I just have to swallow this or, you know, I'm not paying a fee. So I, I probably should not say something about this to like, keep my good standing or like, whatever it is, or, you know, save the relationship or keep the relationship in a good place. I don't think I'm gonna do that anymore as a result. Yeah, I feel like I've taken a lot of risks since then because of that dynamic.

Cody: 17:39

Yeah. I mean that probably helps contribute to your you know, we, we talked about on our episode of setting Boundaries. I think this came up, but you are much more communicative now with your employers than I think you have been in the past with other employers because you've always, you've kind of had a tendency to look at those authority figures and just be like completely subservient to them. Like, you don't want to ask for a change in schedule or time off or a change in duties or anything. It's more just like, whatever they ask of me, I will say yes to. Well, I think that has so much to do with who you work for too, and like what kind of environment. Oh, for sure. Setting. Like Jody, my boss now, she, I remember I brought something up about holiday pay last year, and she's, I, I don't remember exactly what the situation was, but she was like, this is an exchange of service. Like I pay you for the work that you're doing. Like you absolutely are like, bring these things up to me whenever. Mm-hmm. Where. In other jobs that I've had before there just seems to be this expectation or this air of like, you do whatever we ask, even if it's not in your job description or whatever the cause you're lucky to be here. You're lucky to be here. And this is kind of the first job where that has not felt like the case. And I think a lot of it has to do with where we live in a way. I think there's just a really different attitude about the value of work and that people are really seeking, like a sense of freedom where we live. And I wonder, I don't know, maybe there's also more of a scarcity mindset too, here. Like you don't get. You're pick when it comes to employer employees, like it's really hard to get employees here. Mm-hmm. Who are good employees or have even just enough to cover your operation. And so maybe in the city there's this feeling of like, you know, you probably experience this in la It's like, if you don't like, you know, if you can't hang then like there's 50 other fucking people Yeah. Firing for your job. Yep. Always. But I kind of look at jobs the same way now and I didn't used to when I was younger, it was like terrifying to think of losing a job and Yeah. Through experience, you know, I found that there's always another job around the corner, like no matter what the economy's doing, you know, there's all these scare tactics being used in our society all the time to kind of keep you on edge because it sells ads, but you know, in the news and that kind of thing, but, There's always a way to make a living right around the corner. So it's changed my view of that employer employee relationship quite a bit over time.

Tali: 20:42

But I know of that, but I don't wholeheartedly believe it.

Cody: 20:47

I know about it. I think it just takes practice. It does. Like I've had enough jobs now to, and I don't think I've ever been unemployed longer than I wanted to be at any given time, except for maybe when I was very young living here. And I think that's probably some of what causes that fear as well. Cuz when you're 17 or 18 or whatever, like maybe you don't get whatever job you, you know, The, the options are more limited because you have very limited experience. But I feel like the older you get, the easier it is for people to just bring you on up to a point. I'm sure there's some ageist stuff in there when, when I'm 60 I might not feel the same way. Yeah. But, but there's always income opportunities outside of jobs too. Totally. Like look what we've, what we've done in the last several months, you know, we've are building an online company, but we decided to get some local clients to, for lots of reasons to keep our coaching experience alive and engage more with the community and that kind of thing. But there's we didn't really have to fight too hard to kind of get to where we're at really as far as our local business. And that's already replaced my income that I had at my job.

Tali: 22:03

So, well kind of, I mean, we've got some clients dropping off and that's kind of the nature of revolving

Cody: 22:07

door. Yeah. What's that? There's always a revolving door in all business.

Tali: 22:11

It's true. And that's the part that I. That's the part of jobs that you don't experience. Mm-hmm. And so that experience can be really nerve-wracking. It's kind of weird how I'm drawing this illusion right now, but I'm thinking about that little documentary I watched yesterday on Aaron Carter who passed away earlier this year, or maybe it was last year, 2022. Yeah. Pop star kid, like, came to the scene when he was like nine. And so there was kind of, there was a part of the story that I thought was most interesting and I've been wanting to talk about it, how there's, you know, he, he rose to the top so fast and he's one of those artists, I'm sorry to say, kind of like Lenny Kravitz, where he tried to live off of the same music he did forever ago. Mm-hmm. Lenny Kravitz is doing it well though somehow he hasn't come out with new music and forever, but like, He has so many bear, the bangers that we know of, that we know of, I guess. But with Aaron Carter, he grew, he grew up in the industry and kind of had this mistaken idea that like, okay, I'm set now. Like I made it on these charts. I put out this great album and then like didn't create anything for a really long time after. Mm-hmm. And was kind of confused by how there wasn't really any opportunities coming his way. And that's a thing I, I mean, there's a huge difference in a job. And having your own business, your own business, it never fucking stops. It never ever stops. And with a job you can clock out, you can have your own life separate from it. And those are like modes of operation. Like that is a way of thinking, a way of living your life. And they're really different. They're really different. Yeah, but you've been doing it for such a long time that I think it's a much more comfortable place for you to be operating from where I've, I like that kind of like sense of freedom away from my job. Like if I know if I'm not there, I can fuck off and do whatever I want. Mm-hmm. Whereas with a business, there's going to be like constant guilt that you are not working on your business should you choose to, like, well, you just have to have a free

Cody: 24:42

afternoon. You just have to draw your own boundaries around that though, you know, that's, that's just part of the deal. You know, I try to stay productive Monday through Friday and then, you know, try to clean up some loose ends on Saturday and try to take. Sunday's off, you know, that's the, the current schedule that we're gonna try to meet.

Tali: 25:03

Well, I'm glad that you're actu that we've we're talking about this now because it actually came up into my notes when I was kind of thinking about like toxic traits or you know, thinking about this topic in general. And I was recalling the conversation that we just had yesterday where we talked about some of these dynamics where like there's part of our business and the way that we operate that I really don't resonate with that, like, does not feel good to me. Makes sense to me. And wanting to lean harder into, even though it's our own business, it's still structured kind of like a job. Mm-hmm. Where it's time bound, it's through a brick and mortar. It's not something that can be done anywhere in the world, which I know is really important to you. And that is, I wouldn't say that. The fact that I lean into, it's the toxic trait. It's maybe more that like you and I have made agreements that might not fit with what I am comfortable doing. Mm-hmm. Or like doing so that kind of felt relevant in a way because it's not really a trait that I like about myself needing that much structure. And so we're kind of left with the same question. It's like, well, what do you do with that? What do you do now?

Cody: 26:30

Well, you have to ask yourself what changes you want to make. You know, you want to be the type of person who can be productive and confident and comfortable with less structure. And if it's a yes to that question, then start to seek the tools to develop those qualities within yourself. Mm-hmm. And if the answer's no, then it's just like, well, what are the consequences of that?

Tali: 26:58

For sure. Right. And I think that the, it's really important to assess like, what, what kind of response is appropriate when asking that question. Because when I think about the whole weightlifting team thing, I've suffered so much from that, that was my own doing that suffering. Mm-hmm. You know? And I don't wanna live life like that. I don't wanna feel like I'm at the mercy of my default or the way that I just naturally react to things. Like if I actually have a hand in creating a situation or like moving through a situation more productively, like how Awesome. Of course not every opportunity you're gonna be afforded with, like people who are gonna be responsive to that. Sure. And it's very likely that. Even if I did address all those things, I would've left the team anyway. I'm very aware of that being a possibility. Mm-hmm. Or leaving my coach, my team had nothing to do with it really. But the whole way that it went down and the way that I handled it, I like created my own, like traumatic situation. And so now that anytime I start working with a coach, I get skittish and mm-hmm. You know, any whiff of someone telling me what to do, I'm like really on edge. So there's definitely an assessment of like those consequences like you were saying.

Cody: 28:29

Yeah. I think the trick for me is shortening this gap. You know, it's easy to look back, easier to look back several years and say, well, this is the mistakes I made. I'd like to correct those things about myself. And I think it's because you can kind of separate your identity, like, well, that was me four years ago. That was me five years ago. I know better now. So let's move forward and try to improve. What's tricky is recognizing those things sooner. Like, I made these mistakes six months ago. Let's see if I can learn from that. Or a month ago, or six days ago, or earlier this morning. You know, like the closer you get to your mistake, the easier it is, the more difficult it is to break your identity with that thing. And so when you identify with your shortcomings, there's a natural tendency to want to actually defend yourself. And those circumstances,

Tali: 29:27

that timeline that you were just discussing made me think about something that I either heard or read. I kind of remember where I was when I was having the conversation about this, but I had heard or read somewhere about trauma, like severe trauma being. Kind of open for being, like writing itself in your brain. Mm-hmm. If you do it within like 30 days. Mm-hmm. But if you wait after those 30 days to like seek counseling, help, whatever that's when it starts to change the brain chemistry or like your responses are more influenced by that trauma or you identify more with that trauma.

Cody: 30:14

Are you saying the longer it's left unchecked, the deeper the groove? Exactly. Basically. Yeah. Yeah,

Tali: 30:19

for sure. And a lot of the times I take on this attitude of like, well, the past is the past. Like I can't do anything about that. Mm-hmm. But I'd say that that's more about like my own childhood and like things I was not like conscious of as a very young person or like my parents. Like I can't, that was, that was like their deal. Like I couldn't have done anything about it at the time. And. You know, thinking about this topic now in this context, you know, looking back can be really powerful and really productive, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement of like, digging up your past is like always gonna be a good thing. I don't necessarily believe that.

Cody: 31:04

No, I don't think so either. And

Tali: 31:06

because this is a situation where I can change things moving forward, cuz I'm probably gonna experience something like that again. Yeah. Especially if I keep being polite and, you know appealing to authority figures or whatever it is.

Cody: 31:27

I just feel like since the. We're both interested in growing as people and changing. And it's kind of interesting because there's a resistance to almost, it's almost like there's this dichotomy again of this two consciousnesses living within us. Like one aspect is like, well, I need to admit my faults, even though I don't want to, I don't want to admit that this, a lot of this was on me. Yeah. And there's this tendency to want to defend your position, and at the same time, there's this inner voice that's like super critical of ourselves too. And it's strange.

Tali: 32:12

They sound similar, don't they?

Cody: 32:14

It's, well, it's weird that they can sort of be on opposite sides of the fence. Like somebody arguing in your own brain, you know I need to be better at this. I need to improve at that. But then if I, if those faults are brought up to me, Then I defend my position, you know?

Tali: 32:31

Oh, yeah. I mean, it makes me think about that exercise that both my mom and my sister did mm-hmm. Where they're like, please write me a list of all of the things that I've ever done to offend you or bother you, or annoy you, or like, what is holding me back from being my best self. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think it's really normal to be really defensive when you receive that information. Yeah. And I remember even asking you, I was like, can you tell me those things about me? And like, I put you on the spot, you know, you were very polite about it. You didn't really give me anything.

Cody: 33:06

Well, that's, I think I, for me, it feels like I'm pretty self-critical all the time. Yeah. And I think most people are. I, I, I, I, Can't speak obviously for what's going on in other people's heads, but it seems like we live in a society where we're all pretty self-critical. We're all kind of judging ourselves and wishing we were more of this or less of that. And

Tali: 33:29

oh yeah, when was the last time you gave somebody a compliment and all they said was, thank you.

Cody: 33:32

Yeah. So I feel like the reason why sometimes it's hard to hear from outside is that it's confirming the shit that you're self-critical. And then when somebody else confirms it, it's like, oh man, I really am a piece of shit. You know, like that thing, you know, harsh. It's like, it's like it really confirms your fears around your own shortcomings. And I think another aspect of that is like, sometimes that self-critical voice is, feels like it's being amplified. So, It's almost like the, the idea of being piled on, like if a whole bunch of people are criticizing you, it's gonna feel like bullying, like it's gonna feel like you're being attacked, right? But if you're, if your own inner voice is sort of criticizing you for something and then somebody else brings it up, it's almost like it's compounded. That other person has just brought up one thing one time, but it's something you've been telling yourself already. And so it feels like a piling on of sorts. Like, oh man, this is like compounding my own, my own self critical voice.

Tali: 34:43

I just wanna back it up really quick. You were saying bullying, and I know this is not really integral to the conversation, but bullying is one of those words that gets thrown around very easily nowadays. Yeah. Like too easily in my opinion. Mm-hmm. I think bullying really is rooted in malice. Where if you are sharing somebody's like shortcomings or you are trying to like bring a stop to bad behavior that is being inflicted on you, I would not call that bullying.

Cody: 35:17

Mm-hmm. Right. But I'm just saying it feels like that if you're, if you're self-critical and you're telling yourself, oh man, I need to improve at this. I need to improve at this, I need to improve at this. And then somebody else says, Hey, you need to improve at that thing, then you're like, shut up. I know. I fucking hear it all the time. You know, like, you don't hear it from outside yourself, but you hear it from in, so it feels kind of like you're being attacked. You know, like, well, there are things that were

Tali: 35:40

critical. Even what's us come from yourself that's got nobody. And then there are things that we're cri critical of that do affect other people. Like whether it's the way that you, like if you yell at people when you're anxious mm-hmm. That's different than being critical about yourself, of like what you look like, like that doesn't affect anybody else. You know, that's a different kind of I would say that's maybe just as potent, but that's again, it like takes us back to like, well, what do we do when we hear those things? Mm-hmm.

Cody: 36:12

Yeah. And that's the, that's the trick is to sh is to subvert your ego enough to be able to hear what needs to be heard. And I think that's a really incredible skill to develop, to be able to take criticism and say, okay, is this worth taking on? Or is this just bullshit that somebody else's problem, like maybe their, their criticism of me is just of some reflection of their own weird bias or misunderstanding. Well, we sure

Tali: 36:44

project a whole lot onto other people unknowingly. Yeah.

Cody: 36:47

Well, and we're in a circumstance now where you and I are both. Facing a lot of criticism from somebody in our lives that is very ignorant to us. Like that person has not bothered to really get to know us or spend any time with us, but she sure has a lot of like moral judgments against us. It's like, you don't even know

Tali: 37:04

me. Like Yeah. I would say that those, it's like very unwarranted because it feels so extreme for how little information or how little of a relationship there is to go off of. Yeah. And so I think that that's kind of easy to shut down in my mind. I'm not as close to the situation as you are, but I'm easily able to dismiss that and be like, that is your issue. I know based on our relationship that this is like not warranted. This is not, this is not about me.

Cody: 37:33

Yeah. And I can intellectually do that, but it still keeps coming up in my head like a voice I can't shut off. And it bothers me because you were talking about how like the longer something is not addressed and the deeper that groove can get. Mm-hmm. And I'm afraid of developing this pattern. Like, I think about this every day and it drives me nuts. And I don't want, oh, I'm sorry. I don't want to be thinking about it every day. And it's starting to worry me that it's gonna become this long-term pattern that you just live with it. Yeah. And I don't want to, I don't want to, I need to shake that shit. Well, maybe

Tali: 38:08

I can give you and little exercise that you gave me regarding my coach. Do you remember what it was?

Cody: 38:16

Was it the meta loving kindness thing? Wish them well. Yeah.

Tali: 38:22

Wish them well. Yeah. Like I had so many reasons to be angry at the time or to think ill of this person, or to like, chalk up what happened between us as like character flaws of theirs. Mm-hmm. You know, words like threatened, jealous, whatever, like that sort of stuff was coming up. These are not good traits to assume of somebody. And you know, whether those things were true or not. It's just speculation. I don't actually know because it was never shared with me. Mm-hmm. What the friction really was about. And so you're probably not gonna get that information from the person you're talking about now too, because of their, because of your, the nature of your relationship, the way that they communicate. I, I think it's unlikely that you'll get the answers that you want or to really, you know, in my opinion, you just get the brunt of the anger because it's, you're around, this person's mad at other people who are close to you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're next in line essentially. But yeah, you used to tell me to wish him well, and I can't say how like far that actually took anything for me, but I practiced it. I tried it.

Cody: 39:49

You know? Yeah. It's easy to dispense advice. A little more difficult to take it.

Tali: 39:53

It is. But it also can just kind of cool your jets in a way. Oh, yeah. And I think that that's really helpful. Yeah. Especially if you're dealing with this on a daily basis. I was dealing with this on a daily basis too. I would wake up crying. Mm-hmm. You know, like it would be, it was, I think of this as like even harder than my breakup with my longest term boyfriend. Wow. Easily, easily by far harder. Yes. Devastating it. There are a lot of parallels in the way that I very much have questioned like, well, who am I without this? Mm-hmm. And like I said, like. I need to figure out a way to move forward without letting this influence, the experience. My love for the barbell, my love for being strong, my love for competition shouldn't have anything to do with another person. But the fact that I have them so linked in my head to the point where like I think about it every time I lift, even still that's problematic. There has to be some sort of separation. There more, more coffee. Thanks. And so I think a step is changing the way that we talk about it, which is what I mentioned in the very beginning, is that I kind of added this extra commentary to this person I was telling about. You know, I went through kind of the, the same narrative that I've told millions of times at this point. But I was able to kind of round it out being like, yeah, you know, I was really upset to the point where I just like, Burn the whole house down and I wish I hadn't, I wish I would've had a conversation first, and I know that that's something that I could have prevented. Mm-hmm. That's huge. Changing the way that we tell stories is huge. Like, I think about that all the time in even little instances, like when I, if I'm talking about another person or something that happened to me over the weekend. It's funny being in a relationship because I think having you be present to hear, like me telling the same story over and over again is almost like accountability to like, oh, I should probably have some new thoughts about this by now. You know, like, you, I dunno. Being there makes me think like, oh, like what if he's thinking, oh God, she's telling the story again. Has she not learned anything at this point? So it's really motivating, but I also notice that like, I want to be present in the moment. And I think what that means is that our. Maybe the experience hasn't changed, but the way that we can feel about it can change moment to moment. Mm-hmm. We're evolving people all the time and so when I hear people tell stories the same way that they've been telling it for years, like, this person screwed me over, or this breakup, blah, blah, blah. If you don't feel about it differently or think about it differently, like years down the line, think about how that influences the rest of your life. Mm-hmm. If we just let these things be concrete forever, I think it's such a trap and I'm so aware of it when I'm hearing it from other people and I'd say I'm just starting to do that for myself and it feels really good. I think it also shows that like we are complex beings and it's kind of a cool moment of vulnerability with somebody else, like to admit a fault. Mm-hmm. You know, to be like, yeah, I didn't actually handle it very well. Like that was kind of cool. To share cuz it's way easier to just like pin the blame on somebody else. Yeah. That person was a dick. That person wronged me. But I think you might actually be more of an endearing person when you're not trying to save yourself and be, you know the hero of the story or the victim of the story. Oddly, those things I think are very close to each other.

Cody: 43:51

Yeah. And yeah. But yeah, for sure. Cause there's a lot of there's a lot of victim. What should I say? It's like victim shaming is a thing. Like, you know, you some victim of a crime and you don't want to, like, it's very common for like a sexual assault. And it's like, well, she shouldn't have been wearing that. And it's like, what the hell? Like, how could you say that? Like, you don't want a victim blame. But at the same time, there's this weird thing in our society right now where victims are kind of held up as heroes. Like it's gr it's great. The, the more victimized you have been, the more we just respect you from coming, the more virtuous forward you are. Yeah. And it's like I don't know. It's kind of, it's almost like, yeah, victimhood as a virtue and it's kind of creating a whole society of victims. Like everybody's got their story to tell about how they were disenfranchised or they were bullied or they have to deal with this illness or that, you know, it's like, well there

Tali: 44:51

is a certain like, bravery aspect to. Be a whistleblower. Yeah. Or to like, call shit out. But I, I feel, but there is problematic, like in my case where, like I said, I didn't say anything for a long time and then it pushed me to a point where my behavior was compromised. Mm-hmm. My integrity was compromised, my character was being compromised because I didn't act sooner. I let it kind of poison me to the point where I was just so fucking angry. Yeah. And then I become the villain in the story. Yeah.

Cody: 45:31

You had brought up bullying a little bit ago, or I did and mm-hmm. On that documentary you were watching, what's the guy's name again? Aaron Carter. Yes. Yeah. I was, this was not really my era, so I don't remember. This is one of those

Tali: 45:42

times where our age difference is a little bit more.

Cody: 45:47

But I remember the, them talking about like cyber bullying, and I haven't heard that term for quite a while in a while. Right. But the interesting thing about cyber-bullying is like, there used to be this saying of like, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words c can't hurt me. And I know that's not completely true, but at the same time it's like, you know, you can just not read the comments. Well, that was a big criticism,

Tali: 46:11

really. Like, I mean, that was a big criticism in this, or that was like a. That was something that was mentioned in this documentary that like, they're like, dude, like don't read this shit. Yeah. Like people who are more seasoned or maybe more mature in the entertainment world, like know not to look at that shit. Yeah. Like that's just a demonn or just a shadow of that life that you just have to expect. Mm-hmm. But he grew up in a time where cyber bullying wasn't a thing. Like it was new. His stardom was before that. Yeah. And so I think it was just kind of like all the things happening at the wrong time. And he was, you know, they talk about how child stars, they're like used up or expendable or like Yeah. They age out and they're no longer useful. There's definitely a lot in this story that you have to take into account re like in reference to his developmental stages, like being such a young person. If this is what they learn, the real world is like, yeah. Then well, how can you separate it?

Cody: 47:19

And they're seeking validation in those. Yeah. Like whatever the comments are that's validating me as a person. There's three, three sort of celebrity type people that come to mind that have all said the same thing. Seth Godden is one. Gary Vanerchuk and Joe Rogan. All three of'em say the same thing. Like, don't read the bad comments, don't read the good ones either. Because just as bad if you're getting your validation through your good comments, that means the bad ones are gonna hit you hard. Yes. And you need to realize that none of them matter. Right. Like, don't read any of your own press.

Tali: 47:55

It's a really fucked up value system. Yeah. And that. Is totally true for Aaron Carter. If you think about a performer where your validation is through applause and an audience mm-hmm. Then of course when you don't have that, where's your sense of self-worth? You know? And that's what he kept trying to fight to create over and over again. And that's one of the arguments I have for this podcast too, is like, I don't give a fuck if anybody doesn't listen to it.

Cody: 48:28

Well, it's a good thing. Yeah.

Tali: 48:30

But it doesn't mean it's not valuable because you and I have our own sense of self-worth and our own set of values and what makes this work meaningful. It doesn't have to be dependent on what other people. Want or get or whatever it is.

Cody: 48:47

Yeah. Well, I think that kind of brings us back to the topic of today too, as far as like, recognizing faults in yourself and that you have to figure out where you put your, where, where do you value yourself? Because I have s I have a couple of aspects about myself that I find a lot of personal validity with intelligence and ethical standing. Those two things are very big to me, and I realize that those are the things that, when those are called into question, I get fucking pissed. If people are questioning my, my morality, my, my my intentions as being bad, it pisses me off because I almost like, I always try to have the best intentions for everyone around me at all times. So when that's called into question, It, it pisses me off. And the intelligence thing too has always been a thing for me. Like if e when I was in high school as a kid, whatever, if somebody treated me like I was stupid, it, that's, man, you wanna set me off real fast? That would, that would be the thing.

Tali: 49:57

Is that because there was an, there was insecurity around these two things?

Cody: 50:02

No. It could be initially, but I think it could also be, because those are two things I've worked hard Yeah. To develop within myself. And, and so it's like we were just talking about like, if Aaron Carter was looking at applause and comments online for his validation and then the, when those weren't there, then what do you got? Mm-hmm. And I feel like those are qualities of mine that I try to be proud of or that I try to find. Some validation in. And so when they're called into question, those are sort of my trigger points of like, man, that's, that's a real quick way to get on my bad side. Right? But that's because of, I'm putting my own value judgment on those things. But if it, like, who am I without those two things?

Tali: 50:46

Yeah. But don't you think though, if those are things that you believe about yourself and what other people say wouldn't fucking matter? Or they wouldn't matter. Like that's the thing about the person that you were talking about before. It's like, how can you take what they're saying seriously about you if they don't fucking know you and you know those things about yourself. And that's, I also got heated too when I was being like criticized for being like impolite or rude or dismissive and I was like, fuck off. I am. I try so hard not to be those things. Yeah. Like to a fault. Yeah. Like we've talked about like my. My downfall of like politeness, like it traps me a lot of the times. And so to be pegged out as something else just was laughable. Mm-hmm. And upsetting. See,

Cody: 51:41

it was upsetting. Why it, was it upsetting? Because

Tali: 51:44

you don't know what you're talking about, lady, but

Cody: 51:46

why did it upset you? If, if she doesn't know what she's talking about, then why did it upset you?

Tali: 51:50

Well, I would just say it's more upsetting because it's like, cool, I'm dealing with somebody who's like really not reasonable here. Yeah. Or paying attention. They're latching onto something irrelevant or that's not actually happening here. Mm-hmm. Which I think is just more disappointing. Like, ugh, how are we going to find common ground? How are we going to move forward? If. You're seeing shit that's not there. Yeah. And that's not, that's not me just being like upset about it. You were there too. Yeah. And you know me, you know me better than anybody else. And you were shocked by those statements too. Yeah. Nonsensical, right? And so it's just kind of like, ugh. It just kind of shows like what we're up against, which is like, how do you, how do you play nice with a moving target? Mm-hmm. Yeah. My gut would be like, don't play at all. But that is my toxic trait that I'm trying to refer here. I

Cody: 52:45

don't know, I don't know if that's a toxic trait though, because like there's, you know, 8 billion in some people in the, on this planet, some of them are just assholes.

Tali: 52:55

You don't share property with all of them.

Cody: 52:57

Yeah. Well yeah, sometimes you can't disassociate from certain people, I guess, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know that it's a. I don't think, I don't have any moral judgment against disassociating from people though, because some people are, don't want a better relationship, don't want to be cooperative. Some people don't want the same things we want, they don't share the same values that we have or anything like that. And so it's true. I think it's fine to cut some people off you, you can't win'em all. You know, like, well, that's, that's a long standing truth.

Tali: 53:36

Yeah. Well, I wish I would've asked myself like, is this a relationship that I want to maintain when it comes to my coach? And I would have, mm-hmm. I did not act in that favor at all. Yeah. But you know, shit happens when you're hurt or desperate or tired. Tired. So fucking tired.

Cody: 54:00

Yeah. I mean, Sometimes when you're dealing with something the best way, you know how at the time with the tools that you have and it's dragging on and on and on. Sometimes it's some, I think there's some value in just being like, yes, you know, I'm just, I can't do this anymore. Done. Yeah. You know, and it maybe that wasn't the way you would like to have handled it in hindsight, but maybe at the time that was the best tool you had.

Tali: 54:23

It was, and I wrote that in my notes too, as like, we are all doing the best that we can. And I would say the only thing that feels unfortunate about it is like I sort of sadly wonder whether or not that relationship was important enough to the other person to like keep that door open. Because that door feels pretty shut to me.

Cody: 54:50

Yeah. Well I think you felt that at the time. You know, you talked about the, the sit down talk you had after you quit the team and how it just kind of didn't go anywhere, like you were talking to a wall kind of situation. So.

Tali: 55:04

Well, and that was something that I ha that you and maybe a friend of mine pointed out was like, is is your effort being reciprocated Right. To mend the fence? And it wasn't, even if I was the person who was in the wrong, I felt like they were in the wrong in a lot of ways too. And I guess you would hope that if the relationship is worth it, both people would be interested in mending it. Mm-hmm. And so that's still something I wrestle with cuz it's still a loss. But I would say at this point I'm okay with that relationship being let go of, I have let go of it. I've kind of stopped trying and I've. I still every once in a while, like have dreams about this person. But to me it's like, okay, I can move on from that. Now I just wanna focus on weightlifting and repairing that part of the equation. Yeah. Because that's really where the suffering is coming from. Yeah. I've never cared about anything more in my life and to feel like it's just fucking gone. Mm-hmm. Is weird.

Cody: 56:08

Yeah. It's a strange trait that we have the way our brain work is that we learn things through association and so now you have this association with this thing that was dysfunctional and this thing that you really love and they're associated with each other.

Tali: 56:24

But I was weightlifting so long before that. I know, but with other people in different states.

Cody: 56:30

But it's kind of like where you left off, you know? Well, I like to, it's kinda like, you know, I remember when I was a kid, I loved spaghetti, like spaghetti and meatballs. That was like my thing. Right. I can't wait to hear this. Well, one time I had a fever. And when you have a fever as a little kid, that usually means upset stomach. So I threw up, right? I just barfed my brains out and it was disgust, spaghetti the worst, disgusting. And it was spaghetti. I couldn't eat spaghetti for like a year after that. And it's like, well, all the times before I ate spaghetti was wonderful, but that last time ruined it for me for quite a while. And I think it's the same thing. We associate, we have an association on our brains with things. And when you have some sort of I hate to overuse the word, but for lack of a better term, traumatic, if it's some sort of like traumatic event your brain's deeply impactful. Your brain's gonna be like, wait a minute. The last time you were involved in this thing, this bad thing happened. So just watch your, your step, you know? And so every time you like smell spaghetti, you're gonna be like reminded of that time. And so. I, I don't think it's, I think it's really an odd function of our brain that we have to consciously develop some separation between those two. That your experience with the team, your experience with competition, your experience with training, your development as an athlete, all the other relationships that you had surrounding that sport all have nothing to do with you and the coach.

Tali: 58:00

I know that consciously. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm so intent on like, I wanna start lifting this week by myself, because that's how it started. Yeah. It was just play. Mm-hmm. And it was amazing. And then everything followed. So I'm trying to kind of like go back to my origins, my roots, and kind of rebuild. I have two things. One, I remember throwing up Top Ramen and it was the worst fucking thing ever. Pulling noodles out of your own throat is so unpleasant. 2, 2, 2. Oh, hush. Oh man. Well, what's the point of long noodles if you're gonna cut them up? It's the

Cody: 58:44

experience of chewing them. That's whatever.

Tali: 58:50

Second thing is, is, I'm sure you've heard this before, but there's like a saying something along the lines of like, it'll take half as long as the relationship that you were in to get over the breakup. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm kind of a believer of that because I would say like, down to the week, like that's what it was like to get over my relationship with Alex. It was like three or four years, but that was half of the time that we spent together.

Cody: 59:24

Yeah. That, that, it could be a general rule of thumb, but we have to think about those patterns like I was talking about. You get in a thinking pattern and it can really linger for a long time. Cuz for me it was the opposite. Like my high school sweetheart breakup was only two like a two year relationship and I was kind of bent over her for like a decade after that. Mm. Well, we're all different. Well, I'm just, they're exception I think. I think it has a lot to do with you know, I've learned a lot since then about how the brain works and psychology and everything, and I really think it was just patronistic thinking. I was just thinking in certain ways that started to develop a groove of how I thought about things and it took a long fucking time for that to just fade on its own because I wasn't mature enough to notice it and, and realize that I had had some, I had some agency over how repetitive these thoughts were. Yes, they were just intrusive, repetitive thoughts that I seem to be at the mercy

Tali: 1:00:25

of. Sure. And there's definitely an important element of this, of like having to be conscious about these things and reflecting with probably some tools to. Think about it mm-hmm. In a different way other than this is what happened to me, this is what's going to happen to me. Mm-hmm. Whatev, like, there's so many more possibilities beyond that. You know?

Cody: 1:00:46

That's why this current situation it's upsetting to me that it keeps coming to mind sort of out of the blue, like beyond my control. And it's one of the reasons why I've been so adamant about getting back into my meditation practices and things like that. Mm-hmm. Because I feel like that's some tools for, you know, medi. That doesn't mean that's exactly what meditation is. Like your mind wanders and then you, you come to the present and say, It's okay that you wandered, but let's get back to what we were thinking about the breath or whatever. And so it's a practice of changing that pattern. Like, oh, this thing is coming up. No, I don't really want that. I'm gonna focus on this other thing. And just being able to calmly steer the mind, so to speak. And so I think it's a valuable tool for being able to let go of some of these patterns that creep up that you don't want. So I'm really really intent on developing that skill.

Tali: 1:01:49

Well, I think it's normal also that you would still be feeling challenged by it because there hasn't really been a lot of change. There

Cody: 1:01:58

won't be, there might be. There won't be.

Tali: 1:02:02

Well, that is a thought pattern in and of itself. Yeah. You know, we have kind of set ourselves up for some like milestones to. Like kind of track the progress mm-hmm. Of this challenged relationship and needing to move forward and working together. And you know, I feel like it's still kind of early stages of trying to turn it around in a way that makes sense to us, because the way that made sense to everybody else was just to like, be really hands off and just like, hope it gets better. It's like, no, this actually like, needs to have some structure around it and needs to have conversations around it. And so, yeah, I mean, I would say that the, the possibilities are pretty slim. I often feel that way, but it's not impossible and kind of like what I say about our house, like any improvement feels like a huge improvement, don't you think?

Cody: 1:03:05

Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm curious what your thoughts on are on shortening the gap between learning something about yourself that you don't value, that you would like to change, and your ability to sort of accept that and not defend it and move on without it. Like any tools that come to mind for being able to shorten that gap? You know, you brought up your sister and mom doing this, mm-hmm. Doing this question of people who are close to them. Like, what faults do you see in me?

Tali: 1:03:47

And this is not something that they, like, they were prompted by a program to do this, right? Like, I don't think it was something that they came up with in on their own. Which, you know, that in and of itself is a tool, right? Mm-hmm. Like they went to something outside of themselves to give them this kind of clarity.

Cody: 1:04:03

There's an aspect to that question, though, that really you have to, if, if it's gonna be effective, There's a second aspect of it where you have to let go of whatever's gonna be said before it's even said, because it's really easy to ask for somebody's opinion and hope for a certain response. You know, we all have these like sort of attachment to outcomes. You know, it's a sort of a Buddhist thing, like this. Suffering is sort of your attachment to a certain outcome. And I think it's a really easy default to ask somebody's opinion, hoping for a certain response. And then when you don't get that response, you're like, well, fuck you, then. You know, like, yeah, that's not the re you know, that's not, you were supposed to

Tali: 1:04:45

say, well my good friend, whenever she gives me advice, a lot of times she's like, do you really want me to tell you what I think? Or do you want support in what you think? And I think that's such a valuable question because some people do just want wherever they currently are to be validated or to be buttressed up. But If you are really in a pickle and want to maybe change your life, like that might mean hearing things that either you haven't thought of or that you're not excited to hear. Yeah.

Cody: 1:05:19

Or even that you have thought of and you just are hoping that it's not true about yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Tali: 1:05:26

you know, there's a, it's interesting cuz there's a reason that I, I haven't asked that question back to my mom and sister, and that's partially because I, I feel like I know what they're gonna say mm-hmm. In terms of like how I make them feel or ways that I'm standing in my own way or characteristics I have that might be considered unfavorable. I feel like I really know. What they are. And you're right, there's kind of a confirmation fear that it must be true. It's not just in my head or something that I struggle with. It means that I am also inflicting like potential suffering on other people because of it too. Mm-hmm. And that would just be too much to bear. But it is important. I, you know, I asked you that question about what those characteristics are because I trust you and I know that it's, it would be very, I, it's not to say that it wouldn't be important for me to like make those changes for my mom and sister, but like you're my partner and. Our lives are far more involved with each intertwining each other than mm-hmm. Even it is with them. But you're also very protective of me and that's why I don't think you gave me a straight answer, but I also didn't tell you, like, email it to me. Take your time. I was like, tell me right now in, I think we were in the shower when I asked you. Yeah. Yeah. So not really the best opportunity. So, you know, asking others for honesty might be a good place to start if you're questioning that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. I think when you notice it within yourself, I think noticing is a huge part. I'm not quite sure like what the right questions to ask would be. Maybe like, did the way that I responded to that situation serve me? Did it serve another per, you know, if you wanna take it out of your own scope, you know, did it serve them? You know, just trying to like see how your way of being affects other people, I think is really important to take into account. You know, there's people that I've known that I am and that I've seen, I've seen on reality TV a lot where it's like, how do you not see that you are the common denominator of like, all this fucking drama?

Cody: 1:08:02

Well, we know people like that in our real lives. We do. Yeah. Certain relatives of mine that are just like burning relationship after relationship and just like, why can you not see that you, you're the epicenter of all this chaos. Mm-hmm. Holy.

Tali: 1:08:17

Or that like relationships are being severed with you. Like it's not a coincidence that it's more than one person. Yeah, it's, yeah. I haven't really had that experience. I haven't had relationships severed with me. I've severed relationships with other people and. It's less about them, it's been more about me not really like, willing to step up to the plate to be vulnerable or to ask for what I want or what I need or to like, please don't do that. And I've also had that modeled for me. You know, one of my parents is an expert at this. I've seen it so many times, and the language used around it has always been very severe. Mm-hmm. And so it's not a foreign concept to me, but I think that question of like, is this serving me, not only can be a like used or applied when you are in the moment, but also reflecting on the past, like what I was saying about telling the story differently. You know, there's probably gonna be a time where I reflect on the story entirely differently with what happened with my coach. But right now I'm just kind of adding a footnote to what was already existing and said for such a long time that there's room to like creatively feel differently about it. And I think that that's what development and presence, how that's really pronounced, is when you're open to identifying those things and sharing it. Like making it publicly known. Mm-hmm. You know, something in reality television that's like so sickening to watch. Is that people will double down on their bad behavior. And what they mean by that is like, rather than after like the shit storm has happened and like everybody's kind of like given their 2 cents on it. They dig their heels even more to justify the bad behavior. And that's not something I'm willing to do. That's, I feel like a direct response to the question is like, what do you do when you have bad behavior? Either pointed out or recognized within yourself. Doubling down is not the way to do it. Do not solidify that part of you. Mm-hmm. You know, like what a trap that can become. It kind of reminds me of that game I don't think you've played it before, but it's called landmines. It's drinking game and you play with cans of beer and you like what is it like you have to spin a quarter and you have to like chug your beer for as long as you think the can, the coin is gonna be spinning for and. I can't exactly remember how it works. We can link to the rules. It's a fun one, but essentially the table becomes filled with what are called landmines, and these are like cans of beer. Mm-hmm. And they more readily knock the coin down. So your turn or whatever is like shorter and shorter and shorter. And it makes the game more difficult. And it just kind of seems like that is what would happen kind of mentally. If you hang on to these stories without revision or growth or opportunity. You're just gonna have these kind of like solid unmoving pillars in your mind that you're always gonna have to like, work around and they're gonna influence the other structures in your life too. It's like the deepening of the grooves. Mm-hmm. Right? Like they're gonna be these big ruts about how you feel about people, how you feel about yourself, you know, like if I ever feel. Embarrassed or like wronged in the future. Am I gonna respond the same way that I'm not proud of? Fuck no. Like, that's, that's how you grow as a person is like, you try on a different way. If you just keep doing the same shit over and over and over again, you're not gonna be a very dynamic person. Mm-hmm. Down the line, you're probably gonna have a lot of bitterness in you. And that is not an attractive quality to be around.

Cody: 1:12:28

No. These are all personal value judgements though. You know, some people put a higher value on being right than being happy or being Um-huh you know, steadfast in their certain belief system as a moral imperative, even if it's making them miserable, even if it's ruining relationships or whatever. Like, we all have different value systems, so, You know, for you and I being a dynamic, growing, changing person is a value that you and I both have. It's one of the things that attracted us to each other, I think, is that yeah. We are not interested in being static type people who,

Tali: 1:13:10

and but that's in the execution. Like there are underlying beliefs and then endless possibilities of how to exercise them. Mm-hmm. Where I feel like this is kind of the criticism that we've talked about with religion. It's like, there, there's a value system, which is all good and well, but then when there's these rules around it and only one right way of doing things, that's when it becomes so rigid mm-hmm. That people are like, driving themselves crazy and like vilifying other people and like, it's my way or no way. Like, that's not a way to live. It's

Cody: 1:13:44

really funny with the, a Abrahamic religions too, the three big ones. Mm-hmm. Because they're all, they, they, it's like there's only one way. Except that there's like 5,000 different versions of the one way. Like what are you talking about? There's

Tali: 1:13:58

so many different. Well, and that's how something really beautiful can be kind of turned ugly, right? Mm-hmm. Like the, the values of Jews, Christian Muslims, like there's so much at the core of it that's like very loving, accepting, whatever. Mm-hmm. But think about the way that these actually are practiced. Yeah. People kill each other over this shit. Mm-hmm. That's, and they have been for centuries. Yeah. Right? And that's not in alignment and that's just like the same kind of pillars I was explaining in the mind. Like there's just this rigidity in the way that we operate sometimes. Maybe it's because we're all working jobs and like that kind of set it and forget it thing where we're not being really conscious about what we're saying or how we're spending our time, like moment to moment. I think it really takes having a lot of presence to. Be able to like, create our lives and create our worlds. And if we think of things as absolutes forever or like always think that, you know, a, a really like simplistic way of thinking about this is, if I think of every coach that I'll ever work with is gonna screw me over, whatever, then I will never have the pleasure of working with a coach again. Mm-hmm. That's, I'm gonna suffer for that. Mm-hmm. You know, that's not true. This was one instance. Mm-hmm. One time in my life. It is not a reason to shut myself off or make a villain out of every coach that's out there. Mm-hmm. You know, I would feel devastated if someone felt like that about me as their coach. You know, ruin the experience for them. Yeah.

Cody: 1:15:46

Well once again, you know, we circle all back to this over and over again, but self-knowledge is yeah. The key to it all. And know thy self is an admonition, but it's like there's a lot to that. Knowing yourself, there's so many aspects to ourselves and ways of building awareness and

Tali: 1:16:09

Well, and knowing inside itself is not static either.

Cody: 1:16:11

Yeah. Well, and we've talked about a couple of those things, like recognizing when something is just a groove and a pattern, and does that pattern and that groove and that way of thinking about this thing serve you? Or is it productive at all in any way? For anyone? And just

Tali: 1:16:25

like with the hiking. Mm-hmm. I know this has come up a lot, but like, this is also part of this conversation too. It's like, I people say hiking, and I like, Ooh, I like make a face. Mm-hmm. I have created this pattern that like, I have an adverse effect. We went hiking yesterday, fucking loved it. I was so excited to be out there the whole time. Yep.

Cody: 1:16:45

Yeah. You gotta high from it.

Tali: 1:16:47

But it's to the point where it's become a part of my identity. Like, it's also something that like people pick fun at me for. Mm-hmm. At this point that like, oh, she's such an indoor girl. Oh, she wouldn't last two seconds out there. Oh. You know, walking on your own property isn't really a hike. You know, like that's the kind of stuff that like becomes embedded in our character. Mm-hmm. That doesn't have to be there. It's like not real, you know? And I have to just think about it. Like, the next time hikes come up, I'll just have, instead of like saying what I normally say, I'll be like, yeah, I went on a hike last weekend. It was awesome. That's how you can like mm-hmm. Change the tides. Mm-hmm. Like, try to catch yourself in moments where you are repeating yourself and ask like, does this still fit me anymore? Yeah. Is this worth carrying forward? Yeah. I think that's still valuable. And I know I've, I've been able to correct myself in the moment sometimes being like, Ugh, this is something I've said so many times, it's probably not true anymore. Mm-hmm. And that's just like a halfway point to being able to change the narrative completely. Yeah. It's so powerful and so freeing.

Cody: 1:17:59

I mean, that's how I've been with social situations too, because there was it was time in my life when I was like committed to social interactions that I, that was just a, I I didn't ask for the commitment. Let's just put it that way. Like I was married to someone who said yes all the time to every, you married two people like that potential. Yeah. But it's a little different with you and I cuz you don't expect me to just be there. You invite me, like, Hey, there's this thing that's going on. I already said yes. Would you like to come? Whereas in my previous marriage, it was expected that we're going, if one person said yes, that means we're both going. And so I, you know, and so she'd tell other people that I was gonna be there and stuff like that. And it's like, ah, and I got tiring. And so there's this introverted aspect of myself that just has a knee jerk reaction of saying no to every potential social interaction,

Tali: 1:18:57

including possible watching Vanderpump rules with my friends.

Cody: 1:19:01

You know, I just hate, I hate the

Tali: 1:19:02

show, but here you are. You're saying it again, you're saying you hated the show even before you had watched it. Yeah. One so landmine.

Cody: 1:19:11

I don't need to see every episode to understand that. I don't like the show. Two.

Tali: 1:19:15

Two is that you ended up watching the after show with me. And it was so fun. Right? I think our right, our

Cody: 1:19:22

perception of that experience is very different. You think because I was so why don't you get up and go. I was zoned out. You were hated it so much. I was just sitting with you. I was just zoned out half the time not even watching it. That I was not

Tali: 1:19:33

even watching it to me. You actually were watching it because you had made, I made two comments on, on an hour long show. I'll never forget those two comments I zoned in out. But my point is I just think your

Cody: 1:19:44

perspective is so funny had some invitations to social interactions lately and I've been saying yes. Yeah, that's true. And that's because I am, I realize that knee jerk reaction in myself isn't necessarily indicative of the type of person I want to be.

Tali: 1:20:06

Yeah. Well we've talked about how there's so many of our Instincts that are so outdated in terms of safety and fear and whatnot. And I, I've always applied that to dating, like I Sure, I'll go on a date with you. I don't know what going on a date with you is like, so I might as well find out rather than just being like presumptuous or assu, like make assumptions and close myself off to things. Mm-hmm. You know, I think it lends to being a more optimistic person if you can start to dismantle some of those rigidities within ourselves or things that we think are truths about ourselves. The, you know, bad behavior is not a sentencing. Mm-hmm. Conditioning is not a sentencing. These things are pliable, but you have to do something about them. And it's so cool when you actually approach them because. You know, if we just let these things sit, like life becomes really predictable, right? Every time somebody asks me on a hike, I'm gonna say no. Every time you get asked to do something, you're gonna say no. Every time I lift weights, I'm gonna flashback to all this drama. Mm-hmm. Like, that's not fucking fun. That's such a boring life. Like, why not create possibilities for ourselves or make a new if we have the chance? And I think just knowing that you have the chance, like this is something that I hope people listen to and are like, Ooh, I never thought that I could change that narrative for myself. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's why I think true creativity really

Cody: 1:21:44

lies. Yeah. They say you can't change the past, but you can change your interpretation of the past or reframe it or think about it in, in different

Tali: 1:21:53

perspectives For sure. Or traits about yourself that have been there forever. Mm-hmm. They're not for life if you don't want them to be. I sure hope not.

Cody: 1:22:05

Yeah. Yeah. I try to look at I think I may, I don't know if I mentioned this in the previous podcast or if I wrote about it, but somewhere you know, I try to look at traits as skills.

Tali: 1:22:23

Hmm. Well, cuz you've put in a lot of hours, I'm sure.

Cody: 1:22:27

Yeah. But I think a lot of people, or a lot of us tend to look at personality traits as that's things you're, those are things you're born with. Like, that's who you are. You're, you are your personality and if you are that thing, it sounds like something that can't be changed. Cuz that's just, that's who you are. Just like a rock is a rock and a tree is a tree. And that, that's what's

Tali: 1:22:47

problematic about the Zodiac is that it's all like this predetermined stuff that we subscribe to and it's like, well, that's just me. Yeah.

Cody: 1:22:56

I'm in Aquarius, so there I go. But I, I do buy into it. I tend to look at personality traits even as a skill, as a set of skills. And so you can choose to develop certain skills or let go of other patterns. Mm-hmm. But it does take a lot of conscious awareness, consistent awareness, consistent effort.

Tali: 1:23:19

I like to think it's a lot easier than that cuz I think just being aware of it when it happens you're gonna notice it and it's kind of like there's this like little moment of friction like, Ooh, I did it again. Mm-hmm. Like, you start to pick up on it, it's like, oh shit, I actually do that a

Cody: 1:23:35

lot. Well, and that's kind of goes back to my question of like, how do you, how to shorten that timeframe be between noticing something in yourself that you would like to do differently. You know, it's one thing to look back on relationships from six or seven years ago and be like, well I could have done that better, you know? But What about in the moment? Well, there's a

Tali: 1:23:54

couple of things. I think for one, you have to always realize that the ball is in your court. You do not have to wait on someone else's actions to retract something that you said or apologize for something you've done. As soon as it comes to you go for it. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, just practice that muscle of like, Take back or Yeah, whatever. Like it's kind of juvenile sounding, but like changing course. Yeah, changing course. And like being okay to do in the moment. Like, ooh, actually you know what, I didn't mean it the way that it came out, or I didn't, you know, I don't actually think that way or whatever. Mm-hmm. Like if you catch yourself in those moments, and rather than just letting it fucking, like sit and linger, be like, Ooh, I actually like that came out really automatically. I'm not sure why. You know, if you aren't sure why but that's not actually like what I mean to say, or I'd actually like to feel about it differently. I feel like I say that a lot, like, I would like to experience this differently. Mm-hmm. And I think that you're just feeding possibility when you're saying things like that. And in a way I think it can develop your relationships more too, because you're showing that there are there. Is a dynamic part of you that can change moment to moment. And so you yourself are not like an immovable object. You're somebody that can have, you know, a changed mind, develop ideas. I think it's a really good quality in somebody when you see that. It's rare, but I have seen that and it's like, whoa, you're an interesting person. Mm-hmm. Because like, you're willing to kind of let go of all of these things that so many of us are kind of like held down to, or tied to or plagued by. Mm-hmm.

Cody: 1:25:47

But that goes back to what I was saying of you and I really place a value on that. You and I place a value on being dynamic and changing, and you, we feel like we only have one go around here in this life. So why, why live the same life that you started when you were 20? Totally make it different and, and, and experience as many things as we can. And that means being willing to grow and change and develop. As a person. And I think, you know, another aspect we've talked about whether what the value is of just cutting people out. I think it's worth, you know, realizing that the power of association is massive. And so you can't be a dynamic, changing, growing person and surround yourself with people who don't value those things, who have a certain conservatism of personality where like, these are my traits, this is who I am, deal with it. And if you surround yourself when I meet

Tali: 1:26:43

those people, I'm be like, f bye.

Cody: 1:26:45

Yeah, exactly. That, that's my point though, is that in a lot of the situations that you and I have been talking about with conflict with people, it's kind of the attitude that we got back from them, right? Like, well, this is the situation. Sorry, it didn't work out for you. Or sorry, you're not happy with it. Sorry, this was all you, you know, like there's, there's no ownership, there's no there's no questioning and there's no desire at all on the other person's part for change, growth, connection, acknowledgement. Like, none of none of that's there. It's like, well, what other, what other choice do you have other than just cut that kind of person outta your life? Well, and

Tali: 1:27:23

I also wrote a note that says, like, to not take yourself too seriously, and I think this could be looked at him in a couple of ways. It's like, it, it, it's kind of a dichotomy in and of itself, but like, in a way, I don't take my, I try not to take myself too seriously to where I'm not tied to any of those things. Like, I want to be able to be fluid. I want to be able to try things. I want to be able to fuck up the cr like, you know Bounce back and like have resilience. But at the same time, I feel like that in and of itself is taking myself seriously. Like I'm trying to exercise all that I'm capable of and try to be my best self through that methodology. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. You know, if you wanna live your life fully, which is the point of this podcast and really the mission that we have for our work that takes loosening all of those joints, loosening all of those screws to be pliable, creative, inventive Explorative. You know, like you have to be able to let go of narratives, truths about ourselves in order to become something else. Mm-hmm. If you wanna be the same person for the rest of your life, like that's your prerogative. It's not really what we're encouraging here. And obviously not a trait that, you know, when we get a whiff of it, it's not very inspiring to move forward with. Yeah. Yeah. That's why like, as crazy as things have been at my work with like huge changes, I have such mad respect for my boss to just like, change our life at the drop of a hat. Mm-hmm. Because a, a situation that felt right to her, she's acting on it. Like, that's fucking huge to think like, oh, well I have all these products that like allude to Wallowa County, I can't change that, so I'm gonna have to be here forever. That's not, that's not real. Like, that's not a real cons like Way of being constricted. Mm-hmm. You know, you create that for yourself, you can do it anywhere. Mm-hmm. And so I have to kind of take that note of like, I don't have to have a brick and mortar to be successful. I don't have to work with people face to face to be successful, but I can also say that that's what I wanna do. There's a difference. It felt really relevant to a conversation that I had this week and kind of a proud moment. It felt really good to lean into that. Mm-hmm. So I, I have a lot of hope that I'll finally get some traction out of this narrative that I've been steeped in for years now. Mm-hmm. And I kind of hope to like never have to tell the story again. You know, when people are like, why aren't you lifting anymore? I don't, I want people to be like, so why do you lift? And I'll tell them all the amazing things of why. Mm-hmm. You know, I wanna be on that side of the equation finally. And I think what you and I have planned, like for the space and what I have going on with my schedule, it's really possible. And I'm excited about that because that's when I really step into my power and what I love so much and what I want to give to people. And I'm kind of just like, ready to be done. I'm ready to be done with that part of my life. Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah.

Cody: 1:31:02

Good to hear. Thank you. Yeah. Let me know how I can help. Oh, you know how you can help because you have patterns that keep creeping back like I

Tali: 1:31:11

do. Yeah. Well, I try to be vocal about them as much as possible when I notice it. Yeah. Yeah.

Cody: 1:31:18

Good. Well, I think there's a lot of interesting ideas here, and it's a complex web of weaving. Well just try to all these parts.

Tali: 1:31:30

Yeah. And I think it's just a matter of noticing.

Cody: 1:31:33

Yeah. Noticing is definitely half the battle. I think that's, you know, that's the value of psychoanalysts is like helping you notice things. The thing that drove me nuts about therapy was I never seem to get tangible advice. It's like, what? It's like reminds me of the movie, the Ref, you know, when they're in the counselor's office and, and they're like, well, what do you think about this? And he's like, I'm not here to pick sides, or, and he's like, well, what fucking good are you?

Tali: 1:32:07

Well, those people were also incredibly heated. You know, it's really hard to see possibility when you're in a. In a head space like that. Yeah. And I was just kind of thinking back to like a couple days ago where I was so exhausted and I could feel myself being like snippy or sad or like kind of like unproductive. And I remember just being like, I think I'm feeling this way because I'm just really tired. Yeah.

Cody: 1:32:33

Yeah.

Tali: 1:32:34

That's really helpful to know. Like it's not you. Mm-hmm. You are not this way.

Cody: 1:32:41

Yeah. Well, goes back to that awareness, right? Yeah. Being self-aware is huge

Tali: 1:32:47

and be with a partner who will help you be aware, you know? Yeah.

Cody: 1:32:53

I think one of our, one of the reasons you and I are good for each other is that we strive to want to be good for each other.

Tali: 1:33:01

Like it, and in real ways, not just like, I'm gonna do things for you to be a good wife. Mm-hmm. It's like, I'm gonna work on myself so that I'm not a piece of shit and that I'm enjoyable to be around. No, that's what I mean. Consider it.

Cody: 1:33:13

That's what I mean. I feel like you and I both wanna rise to try to be our best selves because we wanna be that for each other

Tali: 1:33:20

too. Yes. Yes. And that's the important part is that it starts with us. Mm-hmm. Like we are no good to each other. If, if it's all for the sake of the other. Yeah. Yeah. Be with, it's kinda like the oxygen mask thing. Yeah. You gotta put it on yourself first before you put it on someone else. Absolutely.

Cody: 1:33:36

Yeah. I wish more people recognized that, that the first place to start to work on your relationship is with yourself or how to

Tali: 1:33:45

change the world. Yeah.

Cody: 1:33:47

You know, it's the same thing. Well, that's what the, that's what, that's all there is, is a relationship with you and one other person. Like, there's no such thing as. Society. I know that's a weird thing to say, but society is just a mental construct. We're all just fucking individuals. It's made of individuals. Yeah. We're all just individuals having relationships with each other. So if you really want to change the world, you know, start with becoming as self-aware as you can. Yeah. About your own cognitive biases and your cognitive dissidents and the things that you contradict yourself on. And Yes. You know, if everyone was kind of on that mindset of that per type of personal development, then society would sort of fall

Tali: 1:34:29

into place it would. And inspiring goodness rather than forcing people to do what you want them to do.

Cody: 1:34:35

Yeah. I mean, that's a good point. Yeah.

Tali: 1:34:38

Yeah. It has to start with you. Yeah. Otherwise, if you don't have that credibility or if you're doing it by force, like what credibility do you have? Yeah. You're just inflicting more violence. Yeah. To combat violence.

Cody: 1:34:49

Yeah. Well, I don't think good ideas require. The use of force. No, that's a, if it's a good idea, you should be able to convince people that it's a good idea without shoving a gun in their face. Right. Yeah.

Tali: 1:35:02

Well, it's a lovely place to end things, don't you think?

Cody: 1:35:06

Yeah, I sleep on that, everybody on this, but interesting combo, baby. Yeah. We'll see you all in a week. I, thanks for listening, both of you who listen to this podcast. There's no assumption that you're gonna be on long for the ride. So when I see the people who are listening to this, I just want you to know. I really appreciate it. Oh yeah. I think it's awesome. So thanks for being here for the ride and

Tali: 1:35:31

join the conversation. We would love to have you.

Cody: 1:35:33

Yeah, there's a little button on our website and just hit that button and give us a little comment or question or whatever and add to the conversation because the mo Anyway. I love

Tali: 1:35:44

you. I love you too. This episode was produced by Tali Zabari and Cody Limbaugh. Check out our writing, coaching services and home studying adventures at live all your life.com. For show notes, resources mentioned, or to submit a question or contribution, click on the podcast tab.