035 How To Set Boundaries And Why It's Important: The Philosophy Of Fitness Ep. 25

We hear a lot about boundaries these days but we're not all well equipped with how to set boundaries and how to decide what boundaries will serve us well. In today's episode, Tali and Cody explore these ideas and leave you with some actionable take-aways. 

00:46 Icebreakers

05:32 Setting Boundaries - Why is it hard? Perhaps because the way kids are raised is typically with little to no autonomy, rarely given the opportunities to learn how to set boundaries, then grow into adults who've never practiced that skill. 

08:11 It's possible to not even know you need boundaries.

08:55 Finding the sweet spot of knowing when to set boundaries, and learning to be discerning when you're learning from a coach or teacher. Having pre-established boundaries can help.

13:17 Wild Country Documentary

14:56 Establishing boundaries might start with ethics, but can also be put in place based on preferences for the life you want. 

21:18 Boundaries can change as we change and grow. Don't allow your need to be liked to keep you from advocating for yourself. Book: The Courage To Be Disliked

23:57 Honesty and vulnerability can be strengths, but you also don't owe most people an explanation for your own boundaries. Boundaries, as well as your obligations, change depending on the relationship. 

33:39 You can set boundaries for yourself that don't involve others as well. (Sometimes referred to as self-discipline. It's really just making decisions, but you make them in advance of the event.)

39:39 Boundless might sound like freedom, but being boundless is also being directionless. There is freedom in self-imposed boundaries. 

44:37 Setting boundaries requires self-knowledge and helps you articulate the implicit as an explicit statement. Making explicit agreements leads to better relationships.

51:39 Stepping outside your comfort zone to try new things can help you learn where you want your boundaries to be.

01:02:50 Your boundaries are an expression of your values.

01:09:02

Couples - Proven Fitness & Intimacy Practices To Achieve Your Health and Relationship Goals Together!
To learn more or book a brainstorming call, visit HowToFitTogether.com

Couples - Proven Fitness & Intimacy Practices To Achieve Your Health and Relationship Goals Together!
To learn more or book a brainstorming call, visit HowToFitTogether.com

Contribute to this conversation by hitting the orange button HERE!

Subscribe to our weekly Take 5 Friday Newsletter. Each week we explore our Podcast topic a little further in 5 categories: 1: Fitness Training, 2: Nutrition, 3: Relationships, 4: Personal Development, 5: Points To Ponder

Public Facebook Page
Join Our Private Facebook Group

Follow us on:

Our YouTube: Exercise Demos. Personal Development Takeaways, and more!

TikTok

Instagram

Many of the links provided in our show notes are affiliate links. These cost you nothing to click on, but greatly support our show! Thank you!

We love ALL feedback. Contact us here!

Transcript

Cody: 1:37

Hi, this is Cody Limbaugh. And I'm

Tali: 1:39

Tali Zabari, and you're listening to the Philosophy of Fitness Podcast on the Live

Cody: 1:44

All Your Life Network.

Tali: 2:07

I have two icebreakers for today. Two.

Cody: 2:10

Okay, good. Cuz I don't have very many notes on today's topic, so the icebreakers will float

Tali: 2:15

us for a bit. I don't know how helpful you think these will be. They're just the first things that came to the top of my head. We watched James to the Giant Peach today. Yeah. Kind of. It was the first time I had seen it in at least 20 years. 20, yeah. I'm fucking old now. I can say shit like that.

Cody: 2:34

I think that movie is about 20 years

Tali: 2:35

old. I was definitely a kid, like a young kid when you saw it. Yeah. Last at least I was just

Cody: 2:42

a younger dad so my kids watched it.

Tali: 2:46

Yeah, sure. And I'm sure if you and I have kids, it'll be that. Watch it again. Full thing all over again. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I wanted to know which of the characters you identify with the

Cody: 2:55

most. Well, I know what you're gonna say for me, but I'm not answering

Tali: 2:59

this question for you. Well,

Cody: 3:02

to be fair, I was plotting plants for probably two thirds of the movie. And kind of listening from the kitchen. So not sure if I got a clear bead on everybody.

Tali: 3:15

Maybe you should just go with what I would choose for you

Cody: 3:19

perhaps you're right. Either that or I might be like the magical fellow who gives him the crocodile tongues.

Tali: 3:26

Interesting. Why would you say

Cody: 3:28

that? I don't know. I'm always trying to like be a catalyst for like, change in people's lives and they, and he was the catalyst, he was like the, the shitster that kind of made the, made everything go off the rails. He was like the the hero's journey person who is like the, the wise old mentor who kind of comes in and like talks the person into going on a quest kind of thing. Sure. I'm not saying I'm the wise old mentor, but I'm, I am always trying to advocate for people to like, get out, get out. See the world do stuff. I

Tali: 4:00

do hope that the book fills in some gaps. He seemingly appeared outta nowhere. Yeah.

Cody: 4:05

But the whole story is that way.

Tali: 4:07

Like, I know I haven't really like suspended reality enough to enjoy it fully. Like he has

Cody: 4:12

this fun family and then all of a sudden a giant rhino OSCEs comes out of the sky and eats his parents. Like, that's random. But I don't remember that from the book. So I, cuz the book was, I think, read aloud to me when I was like, in the third grade. Oh, sweet. That's how, how long ago that is. I can't remember if I actually read it myself or if it was just like story time kind of thing.

Tali: 4:34

Cute. Yeah. I think my answer to this question would be surprising to you. The spider? Yes. Ok, baby. It's not surprising. Yes. I identify. She got, she does have style. She's shocker shit. Yeah. And like very moody and like, has these tall black heels and a beret. Yeah. I love Meia Beret and Intelligent and yeah, she's, she, thanks. Yeah. And Susan Sarandon. Yes.

Cody: 4:57

But I know you would've said the grasshopper for me. And I think that's kind of my second one, because I do like fancy things and Yes,

Tali: 5:05

he's a classy dresser and

Cody: 5:06

plays the violin. Yeah. And he talks about how music should come from your soul and like I like that. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty

Tali: 5:12

cool. Okay, so my second icebreaker, icebreaker is where are you sore from? Exercise this week. And you can only pick one.

Cody: 5:21

I, I only have one. Oh, okay. I mean, cuz there's other parts that are just sore, like terminally. But I, my scapular region, region, my shoulder blades are just roasted. I've been feeling it all like, The last four days I

Tali: 5:34

would trade you cuz I like that soreness up in the upper back.

Cody: 5:37

Oh man. Well, two days ago it was giving me headaches, so it's, it's now just like a sore muscle situation. But it was pretty bad. Sorry honey, before, but how about you?

Tali: 5:50

My lower back? Yeah. Which I would gladly trade you for your upper back soreness. And I think it's just because it's, it doesn't just feel like muscular soreness. It feels like kind of that fragile feeling. Yeah. Of like, if I just twist wrong, it's gonna really fuck me up. I actually do feel much better now. This morning I feel like I could speak to it a lot more, but low like that, I feel like I've been well and I also feel like I don't get sore very much these days. You don't? And I'm pushing myself a lot so it's been a little bit mysterious. It's all that protein. I think it has a lot to do with the food that I'm eating for sure. And Yeah, I'm here for it. Yeah. Low

Cody: 6:32

back's like that though, cuz it, it's kind of like your base of support. So if it's off, you feel like you're fragile.

Tali: 6:38

Yeah. I just remember waking up this morning and being, and like turning around to see you and just it taking much longer and actually being like conscious of it rather than just going for it. So yeah, that's me.

Cody: 6:51

Well the ice is broken I think. So you want to introduce our topic for today?

Tali: 6:55

Sure. I think today's topic might actually stem from real world ideas and we're taking it back to the gym as opposed to the other

7:03

way

Cody: 7:03

around. I would agree with that. Yeah. Cause I was kind of wondering where this came from. I'm not sure how it made it to our list. Well,

Tali: 7:09

so we wanna talk about setting boundaries and I think this comes up for me because I think that that's been a theme in my experience as a weightlifter or lack thereof. Mm-hmm. and. Something that I'm always wrestling with, not just in my athletic life, but just as a person setting boundaries. It's not intrinsic to know how to do it. Mm-hmm. And so that's something I wish my younger self might have had, and I wanted to explore it.

Cody: 7:43

Yeah. Well, the, you kind of have to give yourself some slack for that because we're raised in a culture where kids are not allowed to create their own boundaries, you know? Mm-hmm. We are in a culture for the most part, where parents don't allow a lot of privacy for their kids, or a lot of autonomy or decision making. You know, I've seen kids or parent child relationships to where, for instance, the. child will feel like they own a toy, for instance, but then the parent will use that as a punishment method of like taking this toy away as a punishment. And that what that does is it just, it destroys the illusion of ownership. That kid doesn't own it. Mm-hmm. shit that the parents own everything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and there's no clear boundaries set or like rules in place or agreements between people. It's just this top-down parental dictatorship, so to so to speak. And so then we're kind of thrust out in the world and at the age of 20, or in my case like 15 or whatever, but you go out on the world on your own and it's like you're being, you're used to other people encroaching on your boundaries as just a way of life. Like that's who part of who you are is. So it's a skill then you have to find for yourself of being able to say, no, this is my life and I have the autonomy to create. rules, if you will, in my life of the way I want to be treated. The way I choose to navigate in the world as far as it's, you know, as long as, as long as I'm not encroaching on somebody else, I expect these things from other people as well. Mm-hmm. and I don't have to tolerate when those agreements are broken. And it takes a long time. Some people never figure that out, but,

Tali: 9:32

well, I had a note here that says that it's possible to not even know that you need boundaries. Mm-hmm. that was an area that I felt like I had found myself probably around the time that you and I met about five years ago, realizing that I wanted boundaries but didn't know. How to put them into place. And I also, even before that, didn't really realize that I needed boundaries. You had pointed out a lot of things to me that I had just thought were normal. Mm-hmm. especially in my training life in terms of how, not how much it was taking over my life, but how non-negotiable so much of it felt. And it took me a while for it to sink in. Like, I have choices that I can make here. Mm-hmm. And I think as a young person that's super normal to learn and maybe learn the hard way. And I think sometimes I lean too far in the other direction now as a result. So I'm hoping that we can explore like where that sweet spot is and how we as coaches. Create that environment for our clients. Mm-hmm. to set those boundaries.

Cody: 10:50

Yeah. I, it's funny you just touched on my first note. You had talked about finding the sweet spot, and I put on here that it's a tough balance when you're paying an expert like a coach. You're, you're paying a coach because they, you are assuming that they know better than you and you're paying them for their expertise in part and to a point to a point. And that's, that's what I'm trying to get at, is that you have to be discerning though, you know, because I

Tali: 11:21

love that word so

Cody: 11:22

much because you, you know, I've seen situations hopefully I'm not guilty of this myself. I'm sure I've made mistakes. I'm not a perfect human. But as a coach client relationship, I do try to give my clients a, a lot of outs. It's like, let me know how this feels. let's try this. But I've seen other coaches being like, here's your exercise program. And when the client might push back a little or complain, they're just like, well, this is what it takes, you know, and we're going for it. And so they take legitimate feedback as criticism of their coaching or. Or a cop out that the, that they need to push through as a good coach. You know, they're gonna make their coach, their student, like push through. And I've seen that kind of fall apart. I've seen people get injured and then it's like, well, my coach made me do this. And it's like, well, your coach can't make you do shit. You chose to do it. But I can understand also how you were feeling pressured having paid this person for their expertise, and then you felt like you were obligated to follow through. It's a strange dynamic and it definitely takes discernment. And I put on here, it's a tough balance. It's a, it's a, it's a tough sweet spot to figure out.

Tali: 12:33

Well, and you can also add in that layer of, we talked about this in the mentorship episode. You know, not all coaches are created equal. Mm-hmm. you know, we've had friends who have gone to gyms and signed up to work with a coach who like, just started out Yeah. And they were injured very quickly. Yeah. And so I can understand like maybe fully surrendering to an experience, but I think you also have to assess like if you're in good hands or not. Mm-hmm. or establish trust first or something before you, like hand over all your money or do little whatever. It's, yeah.

Cody: 13:13

It's tough though because you're, you're hiring them because you don't know. That's the whole point is you're hiring somebody cuz you don't know. So it's like, how do you, how do you assess a good coach for you? Like a, it's a tough, it's a tough thing.

Tali: 13:25

It is. I mean, personal recommendations go a really long way. That's true with me.

Cody: 13:30

Yeah. And you know, we're taking this back to the fitness analogy, but I think this really holds true in so many arenas, whether it's business, finance religion, hello. You know, like being discerning of the people you follow and the reasons you're following them takes diligence. And I think that having. Pre-established boundaries that you set for yourself can go a long way to helping that decision. In the heat of the moment, like if you decide going into a relationship that I'm not gonna do X, Y, Z, then when. you are in the like, peer pressure part of it. When, when your mentor is like face to face with you and asking you to do X and you said ahead of time you wouldn't, it's a little easier to say, well, that's not a place I'm gonna go to, instead of having to make that decision in the moment with the pressure and Right. And or just being caught off guard by,

Tali: 14:29

do you know what keeps coming to mind? Jim Jones? I don't know why I mean, I do know why, but I just, I feel like that's a really extreme example Yeah. Of perhaps boundaries gone wrong or boundaries non existing.

Cody: 14:41

Yeah. Well, and if you look at like wild, wild country or whatever, that wild country or whatever that documentary was about the rajni conduct here in Oregon. Yeah. And I, you know, I have really mixed feelings about the whole situation. When I read and listen to osha, I think the guy had a lot of great things to say. And it was his sidekick, I forget her name now, but it, she seemed to kind of go off the deep end. Like she, I mean, my conspiracy theory is that she killed him. I think that, I think that she, when he was like taking that vow of silence for a year and then he got sick and all like, Nobody saw him and he was kind of hidden. I think she took over. But anyway, side tangent. I'll link to that in the show notes. It's

Tali: 15:27

crazy. It's a really fun watch. Yeah.

Cody: 15:29

If you guys haven't seen that documentary, it's fascinating. But that's kind of, that slippery slope thing was interesting for people who didn't have preconceived ideas of what their own boundaries should be. Because it started out as this loving eastern philosophy hippie compound with everybody like gardening and having sex and being fed and taking good care of each other. And it was just this wonderful thing. And then it went to buying land so that they didn't get ousted through votes of the local town. And then it went to like, it, it got to the point where they were like, poisoning water supplies. It's like, wait, wait, where? What It's like, where did that work too far? Yeah. So kind of a extreme example, but I just wanted to. take it out of fitness for a minute because I think that establishing your own boundaries through your own moral code, first of all, well, it

Tali: 16:25

takes having one first, doesn't it? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like young, you have to think, young people figure that shit out. I think when you're a young person, there is gonna be a transition and when there, it's in your twenties or maybe even in your thirties where you are, you know, throwing away all of the things that you have been raised to believe and kind of keeping what you wanna take forward in your life. I think if you live an examined life, there's a phase like that where you get to make those choices and,

Cody: 16:53

and not just ethically, but just in the life you want to have as well. Mm-hmm. you and I, I think that's one thing that we've been really, has been good for each other in our relationship is that you and I have a type of life we wanna live. And sometimes outside forces want to sort of push back against that. And can you give an example? And you and I are like, no, we're, that's not the life we're going for. Well, a good example might be like my job that I had. Yeah. So for exactly one year, it's kind of, I didn't mean to, for it to be exact, but I literally

Tali: 17:26

could. I probably did because I have always told you like, it you can really only put something on your resume if it's been a year. Yeah.

Cody: 17:33

But I, you know, that job created a lot of imbalance for us. sucked. It was basically 4 10, 4 tens, 10 hour days super early. And so not only was it a long day, but it was offset to yours. Right. And so I would leave, you know, I would get up at four 30 in the morning in order to try to get a little workout in and go to work.

Tali: 17:53

And it was so hard. I feel like we only got the hang of that towards the end. Yeah. And then

Cody: 17:58

you got home from your work at 6:30 PM mm-hmm. So that's just, that's a long ass day to not be together. to not work on things together. And that goes against the life that we want to Yeah. Be partners in so many things. And I think that's a good example because we set a boundary of like, that's not the life we want. So as soon, like we're, we're not gonna go beyond this point. And at the one year mark, I quit. Even though, if you remember like the week that I quit, we did not have our business mentor that we were gonna hire. At the time, our marketing mentor backed out of the deal. Right. And we were like, well, fuck it, we're gonna do this anyway. Yes. And

Tali: 18:40

so, because that outweighed Yeah. The cushiness. But

Cody: 18:45

if you about it, like we didn't have much of a plan. We didn't have, no, we

Tali: 18:48

didn't. But you and I also have a lot of faith that we're gonna land on our feet and that Mm. If we prioritize the right things, which being together, being able to work together trying to support each other in not feeling like our, our lives are boring and meaningless. I sincerely believe that leading with that, things will work out. Yeah. And here we are three months later. Three months later. November, no. October. No, I worked through October. Okay. November, December, January. Yes. So

Cody: 19:20

we're almost three months out. Gosh, it feels longer. Yeah. Well we've been doing a lot. Yeah, we have, but we're almost three months out and we are literally a week or two out from launching our marketing and finally like launching the business officially. So yeah, it was a great decision, but I think it was stemmed from our boundaries and it wasn't necessarily what I might call like an ethical call, but it was like, this is what we want for our life and we're not gonna. compromise on living the life we want.

Tali: 19:51

Well, I think a better example of having set boundaries and advocating for them in that particular scenario is when they had asked you to come back. Yeah. Just to help out for a little while mm-hmm. And remind me how that ended up going. Cause I was supportive either way. You, I've been in that position before and usually given

Cody: 20:10

Well our business right now, we don't have a lot of deadlines. I kind of love the way we're working because I am not an advocate for setting time bound goals. I think time bound goals are fraught with all kinds of issues fraught. But we're just basically at this point working as fast as we can. Like let's get as much work done as fast as we can so that we can move to the next phase of the business. Mm-hmm. And when you have that kind of mindset in Intact, it's like there's a laser focus. For getting that done. So when my previous employer called and said, you know, Hey, can you come in for like two or three days and just mentor your replacement a little bit because we're seeing some issues in the production and, and I felt like, like I actually wanted to, cuz I wouldn't mind, you know, a day or two that, well the money would've been nice too. Yeah. It would've been a nice little bump for us. But I'm, I was just thinking like, okay, I have, I basically am working six days a week on our business and if I spend two or three days there, that's a half a week that's going to, I'm, I'm looking at big picture. Like I know that we are going to be making more money than we've probably ever made in our lives doing meaningful work that I am more excited about than any work I've done, I think ever. Like as far as what, as far as the actual day-to-day work of it It's so meaningful to me and so fun, and I'm so excited about our future for it. That that

Tali: 21:40

Well, there's so much novelty to it. Yeah. Also, right. But

Cody: 21:43

to, to put that aside, to go make a paycheck for three days was like, no, I'm, I quit for a reason. I quit because it's something I value is to lead the life we want. And going back even for two or three days is like telling my brain that it's not that important, but it is that important. It's so important to me. I don't wanna waste

Tali: 22:05

three days. Well, it's kind of like betting on yourself too. Yeah. You had to just, we had to keep reminding ourselves like why we were doing this. Mm-hmm. it wasn't it. Yes. The money is a big part of it, but we also wanna have freedom in our lives. We also wanna spend more time together. And being at two separate jobs was not affording that at all. All of our time was spoken for. Yeah. So, yeah. I think that when they asked you back, that was a good depiction of when you had to, to advocate for those boundaries or maybe like remind yourself what they even were. You know, boundaries can change throughout our lives, depending on the demands or the circumstances or how we've changed as people. Mm-hmm. you know, hoping that we're not static and it's been really a nice practice, like asserting those boundaries. I always, I don't know if it's just like a lady thing, but I've always had a lot of challenges around a, knowing I needed boundaries. B, advocating for those boundaries and asserting them because I'm afraid to piss people off. I'm afraid to not be helpful to other people. Like if my previous employer would've asked me the same thing, you bet your ass, I would've done it. Mm-hmm. I often feel, not pressure, but like a deep desire to, you know, if they were to think about me, like, oh, Tali, she always helps when we need her. Mm-hmm. love her. Even though in the Essentialism book that we're reading, it definitely, I think stung at first when he was turning down jobs or projects or whatever. Mm-hmm. and then I don't remember what realm it was, like what the industry was. Do you remember?

Cody: 23:47

I think it was in some sort of finance industry. I can't remember

Tali: 23:51

for sure. Or was it a case study? It wasn't the author, it was a case study, right? No. Yeah, I don't remember him. Anyway, it took a little bit of adjustment for everybody, but then, oh yeah, it was a case study. The level of respect that people had for this particular person saying no because they really wanted to focus their efforts on things that they wanted to do or like to do, or the only he could do. Right. Yeah. People really came to respect him and I think that that's makes a lot of sense. It's tricky though because I think about people who like say no all the time. For, I feel like mostly it's like for social stuff. Mm-hmm. or they just don't like putting in the effort or they just wanna like, fill their cup on their own. I'm probably one of those people who would like lean towards like, well I probably just shouldn't ask them anymore. Like, that's not really like worth investing in anymore. And I feel like that has potential to like fracture the relationship. Oh, for sure. I might be projecting that on myself when faced with those decisions, like not wanting to be disliked, which I really wanna read that book.

Cody: 24:55

the courage to be disliked.

Tali: 24:56

Uhhuh. Yeah. I feel like I, I can, I can do that to a degree when it comes to like being the black sheep of my family or my friends or whatever. But situations like that, those are harder for me.

Cody: 25:10

Yeah. Well your family loves you. Like you might be the black sheep, but they all love you I

Tali: 25:16

see. You know. Whereas I think it's important though, if you are gonna assert your boundaries, you have to be honest about why. Cuz I feel like just a, a flat no is easy for people to make up those assumptions. Right? Like, our brains wanna put a story behind everything or give reasoning to everything.

Cody: 25:34

That depends on what the relationship is. You know? I don't think you owe most people your story. Like most people don't, you don't owe them shit. Honestly. I like whether even an employer, like if, if you say I need next Tuesday off, and they say why? And you say personal reasons and they say why? It's like, I fucking said I need it. You know, like you don't need to say it like that, but I'm just saying like, people don't, you don't need, I think people get them this idea that an excuse is a good thing and or

Tali: 26:02

I didn't say an excuse.

Cody: 26:04

I know I said reasoning. I know, but a lot of people conflate the two. Yes. They either don't want to be honest about it or they. But they still feel obligated to say some reasoning. And it's created a culture where like everyone needs a reason for why you might say no to something that no isn't good enough. Yeah. And I don't think that's real. I think you can just be like, no thanks, or, you know, I can't come in Thursday. I have other priorities. Like that's what, that's the truth. And you don't need to explain yourself unless you have the only time. And I said it depends on the relationship. You know, if you have agreements like standing agreements of your availability with your employer or maybe a routine with your spouse or something like, then it seems obvious to me that some reasoning would be. At, at least kind if not owed to that person because you have an agreement. But when people out of the blue call you and say, Hey, can you work next Saturday? And wait, you're not, you weren't already agreeing to do that. You don't owe an explanation as to why you can say no. You can just say, no thanks,

Tali: 27:18

I suppose it's very rare that I have a strictly professional relationship with anyone. Those lines are always blurred in my life. And a lot of it has to do with, aside from Nike, I've only worked for small businesses. Yeah. And it's really easy for there to be like that sense of community or family or support. But that's different than an agreement too. It's true. But I think that that's also just like a downfall of mine and why boundaries have been so hard is because I do blur those lines. I feel like a lot of you know, professional. I have a lot of people in my life who are very close to me now, but had been introduced to me in a professional setting. And I feel like that takes me to another point where, you know, I have had situations where I had blurred those lines with coaches, like romantically, whether it was returned or not. There was a coach that I actually dated. Kind of, kind of a shit show because it was like all very secretive. And I've also been in love with a coach of mine who did not reciprocate those feelings. And so in both of them, it, it changes the negotiation. Yes, money was being exchanged because I was a client and they were a coach, and so that. kind of added to difficulties, drawing boundaries or I guess there just were none at that point. I was pretty young when that was going down, but mm-hmm. and everything was like consensual and whatever. I don't wanna make it sound like anyone's like preying on me, but at the same time I look back on that experience and like, hmm, that probably wasn't like a great situation to be in. Like just being like a young impressionable lifter being like, this is how the weightlifting world is It certainly does not have to be, but it's made relationships with coaches even beyond those. Really challenging for me to navigate. And I don't have a coach now because I still don't really know how to navigate that. Yeah. And not that I'm like gonna fall in love with every coach that I had. The issue was, is because of that feeling that I had for them and allowed myself to express it fully. Cuz I will, you know, I ended up with my boss like you are an excellent example of how I don't really respect those boundaries. And because you're another person. Mm-hmm. like so what if you're my boss? Like, I love you too. And here we are five years later. Yep. To the month even, which is really cool, But the issue that I would create is that when there were situations where like maybe I would've said no or would've felt compromised or overextended or whatever, I would just give in cuz I wanted my coach to think I was the best. I wanted them to like me. I wanted I wanted to be like model student. You know, I was not a great student growing up, but this was an area that I was excelling in and was like, I wanna milk it for all it's worth. So I'm gonna be like the best of the best of the best.

Cody: 30:31

And, yeah. Well it was an area that you chose, I mean, you went in Yes. Consensually to something that you, you initiated

Tali: 30:37

yourself For sure. And I know I've brought this up before, but when you and I moved out here, we had met up with a couple of weightlifting coaches and were training with them for a short period of time. But as soon as I, I could feel myself like rising to that occasion, I was asking them about like nationals coming up, like, how can I qualify for that, blah, blah, blah. And like, let's train for that.

Cody: 31:00

And, and it was them, they brought up the competitions, like the first, do you think? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. For the first few sessions they kept bringing up competitions cuz they were like, so. Hungry to have you in their gym because of what you had accomplished come previously. Well, and

Tali: 31:16

that's not something you come by so excited easily in our neck of the woods. Yeah. So

Cody: 31:20

they were really excited and then you were like, oh, well if they're gonna coach me and they're so excited about me competing, maybe I'll compete. You know, like that wasn't a conscious thing, but I just saw it happen. I saw it. Yeah. It happen in real time. It was like you were not thinking of competing at all and then all of a sudden they kept bringing it up every session. And by like the fifth or sixth session you were, you then you were like, well, maybe, you know, like Right. And

Tali: 31:43

at this point I had kind of like sworn off U s a weightlifting, like there were some shady things going on in their camp that I just like things, yeah. I just don't really like, feel comfortable with or just like condone some of their practices when it comes to supporting their athletes. Unfortunately there aren't any other federations. Maybe there will be one day, but it's kind of wild how I had. Kind of made up my mind about competing and then like you said, I was just like easily swayed and interested because Yeah. When they're giving you that kind of attention and they've got stars in their eyes, like and see potential in you, like, fuck yeah, I wanna live up to that. Like, it make, it's, it's kind of a sick form of people pleasing cuz it's a shit ton of work that I have to do mm-hmm. to get there. But I'm happy to say that since then I have not competed still. I feel like I'm still not really ready or interested. And I, I'm really excited to say that, you know, you and I are interested in or pursuing competing in our first power lifting meet, but we're, it's all self-led. It was all us. Mm-hmm. like somebody did tip me off that that was something that was taking place and it sounded really fun and interesting and at least with power lifting, like, I don't know anything about that world, so I don't have any. Biases towards it, in terms of we're going, how I feel about it? Yeah. We're going in pretty casual on that. Yeah. But I feel like setting boundaries with coaches, like that's hard to do. I mean, there was that whole documentary that came out like two or three years ago now about all of the sexual abuse that takes place in gymnastics. And I'm fairly certain that that happens on all kinds of sports. Mm-hmm. but it was like, especially rampant and exposed like, and I think targeting like one offender in particular. But I mean that's, that's the, that's the issue and the risk you run when you are kind of giving up full control. Mm-hmm. And there's something weird kind of like with the prison experiment where there's something about that environment when you're entering in those kinds of transactional relationships where. We kind of forget, like I'm still me, I still have all of the agency autonomy, whatever. Mm-hmm. But the problem with sports is that sometimes you're dealing with kids, you know, and that isn't something that's really encouraged or talked about or taught, you know, these are just like, it's just the way sports are. Yeah. And well, like I said, it's no different as adults. You know, maybe it pronounces itself in different ways, but it's just as challenging, I think. Yeah. Like psychologically it was very hard for me. After I wasn't being coached anymore. It was like, cool. What else is going on in my life? I don't know.

Cody: 34:36

Yeah. Well, like I said, it's, as kids in our culture we are not given a lot of opportunity to set our own boundaries of any kind. And without flexing that muscle or learning how to utilize that. Sense of autonomy. It's tough to go out in the real world as a young adult and start asserting yourself all of a sudden, you know? Yeah, that's tough. I did have a note here for the idea of setting boundaries for yourself, though in a different way. Not boundaries that you express to other people, but boundaries that you impose on yourself. Like what? Well for instance, you and I have made a priority of doing certain things, like going to bed at a certain time or only like, well, like if we only if we watch tv, we cut ourselves off at one show. Like one episode. Yeah. Yeah. We don't binge anymore cuz we did for a while there and then we're like, nah, we'd stay up for so long. And then it's like, man, this is fucking with us really bad. Mm-hmm. and so, Some people, you know, talk about self-discipline or whatever, but I like the idea of just, well, this is a boundary I'm not gonna cross. I've decided that for myself. And so it gives you some guardrails, something to to know in advance. It's like making that decision in advance, just like I was talking about. When you're faced with that leader or mentor or whatever, and you're in the heat of the moment, it's good to make these kind of things in advance because there's many times where it's like, oh, it's a cliffhanger. Oh, I wanna see what's on. You know, it's like, but we've already made the decision that we're gonna watch one and go to bed. So it's a really sort of stupid simple example. But I see that playing out in many areas of our lives. I think this weekend was a great example. We, oh yeah, we worked our asses off Friday and Saturday on. Cleaning up a bunch of stuff in our business, cleaning up our house, but consolidating things in our business to, to streamline, purchased a new desk, like all kinds of stuff.

Tali: 36:40

Just to make work easier, smoother, moving forward. Yeah.

Cody: 36:43

And we we, we touched a lot of different work things because we had already decided that we were gonna set a boundary for Sunday. That Sunday we weren't gonna force any productivity out of ourselves, that we were just gonna enjoy some downtime, spend the whole day together. I didn't lift a damn finger today. Yeah, we didn't do much product. I mean, I did some planting, which has been on my to-do list for months, but I was relaxing, you know, like putting my hands in the dirt. That's, oh yeah. That's

Tali: 37:09

so nice. It's therapeutic sometimes.

Cody: 37:11

So these kind of boundaries that we decide ahead of time really takes the decision anxiety out of trying to live up to your best self in the moment because, Back when you were feeling rested and stronger or more organized earlier in the week, you already made the decision. And so when you're tired and you wanna sleep in on Friday, and it's like, well, I don't have to get up because it's, I don't have to work today. I don't have a boss waiting for me. We don't have any appointments. Well, we did, but it was later. We could have slept in. But we had made the decision. Are you talking about today? Friday. Oh, Friday. Friday. We got ourselves outta bed early so that we could work out before our first coaching session with our clients. Yes. We didn't have to do that. We could have slept till nine and then well, no,

Tali: 37:55

our appointment was at eight 30.

Cody: 37:57

You get my point. Yeah. We got ourselves up like two and a half hours before so that we could go downstairs and work out. Yeah. But we didn't make that decision that fucking morning. We made it like four days, like all

Tali: 38:06

week long. Yeah. We were like reminding each other of it. Yeah.

Cody: 38:10

So ma deciding these kind of boundaries for yourself ahead of time I think takes a lot of that willpower that's needed. Is that

Tali: 38:16

really a boundary though? Or is that just Sunday setting intentions? Well,

Cody: 38:22

I think they're very similar because it's like a boundary for you. Say it for yourself, like, we're not gonna sleep past this time. We're not gonna watch more than this amount of tv. These are boundaries. Like I, we don't want to cross these boundaries. And yeah, we're not perfect. Of course, we of course we cross those boundaries sometimes, but we've made the decision ahead of time of what that's gonna look like.

Tali: 38:42

Yeah, I know one for me, that's very helpful, especially on the weekends. I, when I first met you, sweetie, I was a yes person and said yes to every opportunity that came my, my way. A lot of those being like social engagements. And it is nice sometimes to set those boundaries of like, okay, hey, Sunday's just gonna be set aside for us, or Friday's just gonna be a workday. It makes it really easy for me when like I'm asked to do things and. You know, I get, I've been in the situation many times where I will prioritize all those social things and then at the end of the weekend just feel like, oh fuck, I didn't do anything. Mm-hmm. And that would be fine if my weekends were just normal weekends. But it's the only time that you and I get to work on our business, which is so important to us right now. So I'm okay with making that quote unquote sacrifice. I love to do social things. This is, it's hard for me to say no to them, but I do have to put those boundaries up first, I think. And I make it known. I let people know that like, Hey, we're recording today. Or like, I can't because I have to do X, Y, and Z for the business. Mm-hmm. I think for me personally, it's a good muscle to exercise because I used to. Really super social, which was great, but I was also super disorganized and would like always be running late to things or always be having to cancel on people in the last moment. And it just was like fucking sloppy. Yeah. And I just feel like the quality of time with them might not have been great because I tried to squeeze in so much. Well,

Cody: 40:17

I remember a couple of your friends pushing back a little bit and you guys having a little bit of fallout from that too. I have had that experience. Yeah. Overbooking. And it's like, well we planned on doing this thing and I thought you were gonna hang with me this afternoon. And you're like, but I did. And they're like, for more than 45 minutes Like, cuz you just like ran out to your next appointment. Well, I have a, another way of thinking of boundaries though is like, you know, a boundary is a transition from one place to another. That's what a boundary is. You know, it's, it's a transition. Yeah. It's a, not a partition, a boundary line between, you know, the USA and Mexico. That's a boundary that the governments have drawn out that. is, there's a difference between one side and the other. Right? Okay. So if you think about boundaries as what I was talking about before, where we make decisions based on what we want our future self to adhere to or to stay within a a certain boundary, that is actually a source of freedom for an individual. Because if you're boundless, you're directionless, it kind of goes back to the essentialism that you brought up. Mm-hmm. before that. If you're, if you're boundless and just saying yes to everything and kind of going where the wind takes you, you know, then it does not create autonomy for you. You're giving up your autonomy when you do that. Yeah. Whereas if you set boundaries for yourself and say, you know, I'm gonna do X, Y, Z, or I'm not gonna do a b. this particular time or whatever, those boundaries are actually creating freedom for you because you're asserting your autonomy. Yeah. It's

Tali: 41:52

interesting that your analogy of being boundless and those, the, that border between the two countries reminded me of, you know, I was a CrossFit coach for many years, but I was a competitive weightlifter and I would have clients all the time, or coworkers and bosses all the time asking me like, do you wanna do this CrossFit competition? Or like, do you wanna, why don't you ever like, come to CrossFit class? And I had to just be like, Hey, I'm a competitive weightlifter. That's where all my, that's the basket that all my eggs are in right now. Mm-hmm. And I could tell that I was like letting people down saying that, but at the same time, I had a very good track record at the time I was. doing very well in competition, and I have that to thank for it. That was actually a boundary that I had no problem asserting. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of like what we were saying about priorities or a priority. Mm-hmm. the last time that you and I spoke, I don't know if it was on this podcast or something else, but there can really only be one, you know, and that means you're turning down something else. Yeah. And at the time I don't think people necessarily understood it. Like why would you be a CrossFit coach if you don't do CrossFit? But that was my training. That was something I love to do. And I did do CrossFit, like, you know, every so often. But there was a point in time where it was not of interest of mine be because I had. other things that were more important to me, so I had to, to advocate for it. Mm-hmm. So I would say that that was maybe an arena that I felt really okay with doing that. Yeah. And that was also kind of similar in my dating life at the time too, where I, I really loved to date and I liked to think that I had a really like colorful dating experience as a single person. And a lot of the times weightlifting came in between me and having a relationship. And I was, I was still always gonna try it, but I was also really hardcore about my boundaries of like, eating, sleeping, those kinds of logistics, training. Those were non-negotiable to me. Mm-hmm. And I think it's important when you are considering your boundaries with whatever you're pursuing, is like, how casual or serious is this pursuit? if the pursuit is really serious to you, then having boundaries is very important. And it's not to say that if you're doing something just for fun or just whatever that, like, you should throw all your boundaries out the window. But I had kind of alluded earlier to how I had so many boundaries up my, around my life as a weightlifter that when I would be injured or stopped weightlifting or whatever, I felt like I didn't have much else going on for me. And it was a very scary feeling of groundlessness and not feeling like I had much sense of self outside of that arena. And I blame in a way feeling like I had to like live up to a certain lifestyle. Like there were, it's, it's hard to say because there are plenty of people who I felt like had better balances of lifestyle and training. and I was like obsessive about it for a while. Mm-hmm. to where I didn't realize that like other parts of my life were faring away. And at the same time I wouldn't change it cuz it was like one of the greatest experiences of my life. I just know now moving forward that I want to have boundaries around that. I want to be able to say no to things or, you know, only train three days a week instead of six. Things like that. Mm-hmm. So I think that it is important to take stock of like what you are willing to do and like where you want to cut other things off or out. Because there are gonna be external forces, other people encouraging you to do different and you absolutely don't have to live up to anyone else's expectations other than your own.

Cody: 45:57

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think part of that, being able to navigate what boundaries you want to set and when is self-knowledge. You knowing yourself. You have to really know what you want. And I think that one way of communicate communicating a boundary is that you are making the implicit explicit. So break it down, honey. Yeah. Well, when you have a feeling or an idea of the way you want to be in a certain situation or some line that you don't wanna cross, but it's not a very well defined line, I think that you have to be able to articulate what that boundary is. So setting a boundary kind of forces you to. or I should say, requires you to have the self-knowledge to be able to articulate what that boundary is. You know, like in your case of the weightlifting, sort of slippery slope with your coaches as far as you know, their demands on you. I'm not talking about like the romantic relationships I'm talking about. Okay. Like, ah, I'm talking about like the demands on you that were really coming from you. Like you sort of like, they say jump and you say how high, you know, like there was just, yeah, I could've said no. You couldn't say no. And not only could you not say no, but you like No, I said I could've. Oh yeah, you could've said no. And, and you, it was even more than that. Like there, I think you went beyond what they even expected always. And it was to fucking always, it was to a point that I think it's because you were not and you just kind of summed it up to yourself, like you felt like you sort of lost a little bit of who you were or you didn't have much identity outside of that arena. So there may have been a little bit of lack of self-knowledge. Oh, for

Tali: 47:58

sure. I didn't realize I was doing it. Yeah. Until af until you were pointing it out to me. Right.

Cody: 48:03

And so setting a boundary, I guess is my point, is that you have to take some implicit thing. Like, I don't want to live a life like this, or I want to be able to do these other things as an emotional response. And you have to be able to break it down and articulate it. It's like, no, like you just said, three days a week is enough that whatever that gets me, I wanna go as far as I can with that, but that's my boundary. And you have to be able to articulate that, not just, I wanna do less, I wanna cut back. I've had clients like that too, like as a coaching thing. It's like, well, this is too much. And I, I'll try to suggest, well, what, what is available? Well, I don't know. It's just, just too much. You know, like, it's like, well, you need to figure that out. You need to figure out, yeah. Explicitly not just implying that you want to do. Something different, but you need to explicitly communicate what you want. And in our case, you and me, were pretty good about coming to each other if you're not able to articulate it. Cuz sometimes it's really hard. You pat Flynn likes to say it's hard to read the bottle when you're in it. You know, like it's hard to read, hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle, I guess is what he says. And so sometimes it's better when you and I come together and say, look, I want to express, I wanna make this change, but I'm not sure what to, how to, how to say what I'm trying to say. And you and I come together and we kind of figure it out together. So I think it's fine to make the implicit explicit by going to the person that you need boundaries with and talk it out and try to discover that instead of just hiding in on your, on your own too.

Tali: 49:38

Or just like burning the whole thing down. Like, oh yeah, I think about when I quit Vulcan. I think about this a lot. How, you know, it could have easily been a conversation around, you know, this is what is making me unhappy. How can we change it? I didn't even really give them that chance. And I just quit. Mm-hmm. I just fucking quit. And I remember when I, I met up with my coach to discuss it further cuz I had kind of like broken up with them over an email. Mm-hmm. which, gosh, I can't, I hate that I did that. It was just so cold, and so out of nowhere I'm sure. But I remember kind of backpedaling at one point because clearly I didn't really know how to ask for what I wanted. And so my response was just to walk away from it mm-hmm. and to just like, you know, shut the door, like close it off. But I kind of didn't, I didn't really. Understand like the gravity of it or what that actually was gonna mean, or that feeling of groundlessness that was gonna follow. And so, you know, if I had a better understanding of what my needs were at the time, I could have asked, I could have at least like asked and then, you know, I might have ended up leaving anyway based on the response, but I didn't give them a chance to respond.

Cody: 51:04

I don't know that I see it that way completely a little bit in regards to what I was just talking about, like trying to articulate explicitly. Yeah, I, I might agree with that, but I think there was a lot of attempt for you to assert yourself in situations. And that's, I mean, if you remember, that's kind of what a lot of the real catalyst for you leaving was, is that you were taking on leadership roles and you were. An extremely qualified coach in your own right, and you would bring guests to their free Friday workout or whatever, and then you were basically told to shut up and go lift in the corner and not allowed to like, interact with the guests that you brought even, or you know, or mentor some new person and like, I don't

Tali: 51:51

know, there was, that stuff pissed me off. Yeah, for sure. But it was also brought to my attention that like the manner in which I was doing it was threatening to the coach. Yeah. Well that's what I did. And so there was opportunity for me to change my approach too. Yeah. I just didn't give it any room to breathe and I was just mad about it and decided to just shut it all down. But that's the problem with not having boundaries. Like it just came to a boiling point where mm-hmm. I felt like that was my only option was to get out. And I think having boundaries in place allows you to. to continue to move forward and to be able to operate, not necessarily in a, a manner of safety, but like you've agreed to everything that you're doing. Mm-hmm. you know, and if you feel like there's more being asked of you, like you can assess whether or not you wanna do that or if it's within your boundaries or not. The thing about saying yes to everything all the time is, like you said, like you're boundless. Like you just realize you're like out on a fucking cliff by yourself because you just kept saying Yes. Yep. You know?

Cody: 52:59

Well, yeah. I think there is some value in also trying things. I think we advocate for this a lot on this podcast and with each other and mm-hmm. to go ahead and try things and then when you realize. You've gone too far, that helps you identify where that line should be, like, where that boundary should be, you and I. Oh yeah. You and I are really good at that. You and I have experienced that a lot in our relationship and just like, you know, pushing some boundaries in some uncomfortable directions and, and then backing up and saying, well, you know what, I think for this to work, I'm gonna need this to be in place. This, this thing, this, this task or this time, or whatever. And, but that couldn't have been known until we tried it to begin with. You know, we couldn't, we, you have to kind of push yourself outside your comfort zones and then realize, okay, well here's a boundary that I need to set because I went too far that last time, or that other person went too far, or whatever it is. So I think it, it also takes some courage to go ahead and say yes first, and then realize, well, I can't say yes to that anymore because that crossed. My new boundary,

Tali: 54:09

I'm wondering if you've ever done this before. I, you know, this is, this idea with coaching and like there being kind of a tendency to be really authoritarian and for the clients that we have to have the potential to, and I'm not saying that this is the case. I'm just saying this is the case. This is the potential in any coaching situation or a leadership position where, you know, people feel like they have to do things or whatever or maybe are being overextended somehow. Have you ever asked for, I mean, I know we just did this recently with our beta testers, but with other clients of yours, have you ever asked for feedback? And if yes, what did that look like? Because I think I'd, I'd like to try that. I've gotten great, you know, testimonials. They like tell you all the great things you did, but like, I would like constructive feedback too. Mm-hmm.

Cody: 55:00

I am trying to think back. That's why I'm pausing. I'm trying to give it a, some honest thought. I think that I've asked for feedback on what can be improved, but it's in such a general way that I usually don't get a very good answer either. It's like, no, your classes are great. And it's like, then why are three people showing up? Like, we, my gym's big enough for 20, you know, like, yeah. So that

Tali: 55:24

reminds me, I remember at 5 0 3 we conducted a survey and like there would always be we did it like maybe once a year or something, but there would always be somebody who wrote in saying that the workouts weren't hard enough. Exactly. And like all of us would just like erupt in laughter, like Baha ha like, yeah. Right. That's so funny. You're not doing it right. Yeah. If it's not hard. That's, that's funny. Yeah, it was funny But I think that that's really important. Like, I want. clients to feel safe with me. And I know that like, this might be in favor of like blurring that line again. Because I have great rapport with my clients and I really love them as people. Like I very like, especially in the one-on-one training world, like I won't work with somebody who I don't feel like we work together well. Yeah. That's just a waste of everybody's time. Sure. Oh, that actually reminds me of a note that I wrote here. Hmm. I wrote firing clients and what we're willing to tolerate. Mm-hmm. you've actually fired a client. Yeah. And that is for sure setting a boundary. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering if you can. Explain that. And I would really like a couple of details if possible, because this is always kind of talked about in a general sense, but I wanna know what this client did to piss you off so much.

Cody: 56:44

Well, one reason it's talked about in such a general sense is that it was a long time ago and it was a client that was with us for, I wanna say like two years. So it was kind of a gradual situation. I don't remember the circumstances specifically, but I can give you an idea of what the problem was. The first time I met this person, he was a referral from an existing client, really sweet guy that was going to my gym. And we were doing these early morning classes where no, about half the time that other, the original guy was like the only person there. So it was supposed to be a class, but it would be a one-on-one cuz it was like the 5:30 AM and it just wasn't really taken off yet. And one morning he is waiting outside the door as I pull up. And he has brought a friend, or turns out it was just kind of an acquaintance. He barely knew him, but I get outta my car and I walk toward him, and this is the first thing he ever said to me before we ever met. He's a complete stranger. And he looks across the parking lot at five 30 in the morning in the dark, and he goes, oh, Honda Civic. Huh? Real Success Mobile. Oh,

Tali: 57:59

oh, gosh. Yeah. And you, he was a client for two years, I can't even believe he stepped through the door.

Cody: 58:07

And so he was sort of like, I was so caught off guard by like, aha. Like he thought he was being funny. And I was like, oh, that's rude as

Tali: 58:14

fuck. That would've knocked the, that like, just, just knocked the wind out of me. Fuck yeah.

Cody: 58:18

And so, I was also desperate for clients. Sure. As a new business owner and being young and having a family to feed and

Tali: 58:26

fewer boundaries, and fewer

Cody: 58:27

boundaries. I, you know, I just like kind of put up with his rude sense of humor. And a lot of people really loved him. It was kinda one of these guys where he was like guest on like, this is, do

Tali: 58:37

you think people really did love him or did they, was he so off-putting that people like faked love him to just fucking live through it? There was that too. Okay. there was all, because I know people like

Cody: 58:49

that too. there was all of those things. There was all of those things. Boy. And

Tali: 58:52

so those people are terrifying. They're so

Cody: 58:54

unpredictable. Yeah. So his really like rude sense of humor is the only way I know how to describe it. But then he would do like, it was like one of these weird things where he would like go out of his way and do really kind things. So he was like a web designer by trade. That's what he did for a living. And he was quite an artist in his own right. And he. Did a whole bunch of work for my website for free, just cuz he, he was like, I really wanna see you succeed. And he like, I really love this gym. And he almost, I really

Tali: 59:22

want you to drive something that's not a Honda. Yeah.

Cody: 59:24

He, he talked one time about getting my logo tattooed on him. What? Because he loved the gym so much. Like, he loved our gym. Like he loved fucking, loved being there. He loved, he'd, he'd come to classes twice in a day sometimes. Like, he

Tali: 59:40

fucking loved it. This is very surprising knowing that this ends in you asking him to

Cody: 59:45

leave. I know. Well, at, at one point I think it caused so much drama that had to do with my ex-wife and like, I don't, I don't, like I said, I don't remember the details, but there was like shit talking behind our backs kind of drama. And I was like, you know, this is a poison

Tali: 59:59

in. So he was like telling you how much he loved the gym and then behind your. Be talking shit about you or

Cody: 1:00:05

me or my ex-wife or somebody. So it was, it was a situation where it was like stirring up drama in the gym and then cl other clients would come to us and tell us about it. And I was like, this can't, this is like a cancer in our community. Like I can't, I can, I can be talked rude to, I guess this was my boundary is like I can, I can accept being talked rude to because I'm the business owner and it all falls on you anyway. It all falls on me anyway. But if it's negatively affecting or making other people quit, then that's a fucking problem. Other

Tali: 1:00:39

people were quitting as

Cody: 1:00:40

a result, I think. Like I said, the boun, it's, this was like 20 years ago baby. I hardly remember, but it was like a situation where it was like starting to infect the community as a whole. Mm-hmm. And I was like, well, that's the boundary. I can't, I have to protect my community. Like I can take the bullets, but I'm not gonna put my people under fire. Mm-hmm. kind of thing. So yeah, that's, that was the boundary there. And then I think after that I probably had a lot less tolerance, but I also, those kind of people are very rare. Like they don't come in the door very often. I think every gym has one and I think people a lot of times will weed themselves out.

Tali: 1:01:17

I can think of at least one and every gym that I've worked in. Yeah. Yeah. Easily.

Cody: 1:01:21

And that last gym that you and I worked in together and we had some issues with one particular client I feel like I stood up for myself on that pretty well. To the client? To the client and the, the employer.

Tali: 1:01:35

The employer did not have our back. No, not at all. At all. And multiple coaches had expressed challenges. Like we would have whole meetings being like, yeah, what the fuck is going on? This is not okay. And, you know, if you are a participant in a gym, you have to realize that.

Cody: 1:01:54

Like in a coaching gym in a, in a gym where you're being coached

Tali: 1:01:59

in an active class, well, there's a few things. So yes, one, you're paying for coaching. That means coach is leading class, not you, two, this is not a private session. You have to realize that your attitude and your actions and the things that you say are being heard and experienced by everyone else around you. And those people would just make it so uncomfortable for everyone. Like, gosh, like I've just, they're, I've experienced a very like, if few, like you said, but like very serious moments of like disrespect that were like, kind of like that comment that you said mm-hmm. that this client of yours had wasn't even a client yet. where it would just stu me like, where do you think you are? You know, and I'm not, like, I'm not, I'm not gonna like revert to like the models that I've seen where like you're in elementary school and like the teacher like picks you up by your ear and like humiliates you or whatever. Like it doesn't really fly in this situation. And I think that you and I and the other coaches who had a problem in this particular gym, you know, we went to our employer who you would think would have your back. Mm-hmm. And that was not the case. And my assumption is that they were friends, but still like, unfortunately, there were already strained relationships amongst the staff and the employer. This did not help. Yeah. If anything it was like cool. Every man for themselves, blah. Yeah. But can like culture and environment, those things are so important in any business in any community, especially in a, like, I went, maybe not especially, but in a gym, obviously that's the industry that we're talking about. It's a vulnerable place. It's where people are trying to better themselves. And so if it's toxic, it just doesn't fly. I just think it's, I would, I would like to think that it's so blatently not okay when that shit goes down, but some people just let it fly because they just don't want. or need clients, whatever.

Cody: 1:04:11

Yeah. Well, I, I think that kind of goes to a point of like what de what determines your boundaries or where you're gonna set those boundaries. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times it's a subjective value system. You know, we, we talked about an ethical stance. We talked about us having a vision for our lives and, and setting boundaries around that. But I think there's also a subjective value that we all have on people, resources, time, whatever. And in this case, you and I and a lot of the other coaches there valued our integrity as coaches

Tali: 1:04:54

to, I was already being compromised to not

Cody: 1:04:56

allow. Certain behavior or movement in the class, like bad movement. Like it's, he, he was putting himself in danger. Like I was trying to help him. Actually, in this case that you and I are talking about

Tali: 1:05:07

It still makes me like nauseated to think about.

Cody: 1:05:09

And the, and then there were values that the coaches shared in the environment that we wanted to see in our class because, you know, there's 25 people in that class and five of them are probably like really insecure like newbies who were nervous to be there and even exercise in front of other people. Yes. You know?

Tali: 1:05:30

Yes. That's a thing. I forget about that a lot, but I have, and then friends and stuff who say that they don't wanna work out in front of people. Yeah. And

Cody: 1:05:37

then here's this person kind of causing drama, which is, it's not helping the culture. So we were valuing those things and the employer was valuing that person's membership. I don't want to lose. like, this will blow, this will be bad for our attrition numbers if this guy quits

Tali: 1:05:54

And you know what, it totally would've been like that case study in the Essentialism book, if he had fired this client. Mm-hmm. because the coaches would've felt like he has our back. Yeah. And then the clients would realize like, that shit don't fly here. Like that's protecting them. Yeah. I think that was such a wrong call to make. Yeah, I agree.

Cody: 1:06:19

Yeah. So different, different, different values, I guess is my point. When you're assessing boundaries, whether you're respecting somebody else's boundaries or setting some for yourself, you have to keep in mind this subjective value that different people have. And I think, and whether or not that's something you're willing to respect or not, or if it infringes on your values. Yes.

Tali: 1:06:41

And I think it's important to reassess boundaries all the time. I. I am always, always, always so conscious to ask myself, you know, is this still serving me? This boundary made sense at one point, does it not anymore? And I think that's just an important question to ask yourself because sometimes we make boundaries out of fear, you know, like very non-negotiable, hard boundaries. And you know, that's the thing, the thing about boundaries is they can be as big or small as you create them. Mm-hmm. And so if you, you know, are in that bottle, like what you were saying, if your world is so small and your boundaries are so many, are so great that you don't grow mm-hmm. you're like inhibiting your ability to do anything you know, that's important to assess as well. You know, we talked about Boundlessness and I think that's because. that's the direction that you and I lean towards. Mm-hmm. But I think other temperaments or other kinds of people might find themselves on the other side of the spectrum where there are too many boundaries and

Cody: 1:07:44

I feel like that's most people in our culture. You think? Yeah. In, in, in unhealthy ways. I think a lot of people subject themselves to boundaries that are not consensual or are not of their own creation. You know, I just got through saying that like, we all have subjective values. This is like an Austrian economics theory, that there's a subjective theory of value, Uhhuh, in the economy. Like what are you gonna pay for a car? You're not gonna pay for a car, what it's worth? You're gonna pay for a car. What other people are willing to pay for that car? Mm. You're not going to get a job and be paid what the job is worth. You're gonna be paid for what you can be replaced for. If somebody else is willing to do that job for$10 an hour, that's what the job pays, right? So, This kind of carries out into the idea that in, in like Eastern philosophy, there's no such thing as a boundary. Our boundaries are just a subjective way of looking at the world, but everything is really connected and we create boundaries based on our subjective values, Uhhuh, And so, you know, those can and probably should as you grow as a person. Change. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. So just like the borders I was talking about between the USA and Mexico, it is just fairy dust. There's, it's not real right?

Tali: 1:09:14

Well, are you making a case for being

Cody: 1:09:17

boundless? No. I think that creating your own values is what gives your life direction and meaning. Hmm. Because if you're just gonna flit It kind of gets back to the whole autonomy thing. Like what I was just trying to allude to is that a lot of people give up their own personal values for a religion or the religion of government or whatever, you know, this top down authority. They give up their autonomy and say, you set my boundaries for me. Right. I'm just gonna give you that, a authority to set my boundaries for me, and that way I don't have

Tali: 1:09:55

to. Yeah. I mean, that's my issue with labels in general of any kind too. Yeah. Is that it kind of inherently means that you are living within the boundaries of whatever. Label demands of you or defines and that never feels right.

Cody: 1:10:12

And that's why I was trying to say that setting boundaries for yourself is a source of freedom. Because if you don't, it's just, well, he says the same thing in the Essentialism book, if you don't set your James's clear,

Tali: 1:10:22

right? No, no, no, no. Greg

Cody: 1:10:23

McEwen, Greg McEwen says, you know, if you don't set your own boundaries, people will set them for you. And so, so that's why I was trying to allude to the fact that if you set your own boundaries, that's a source of freedom because you're giving, you are asserting your autonomy.

Tali: 1:10:40

Yeah. So even though it can be kind of looked at as like a means of confining yourself. Mm-hmm. the fact that you set them yourself is, is the freedom. That's the, that's the action.

Cody: 1:10:49

Exactly. Yeah. And without those, they'll be set for you. If you, if you just look at the world as boundless and just sort of, like I said, like aimlessly drift from one thing to the next, you will be told what to do. Like there are. Laws of nature that come into effect to, to kind of push you around? Well, I wonder

Tali: 1:11:07

about language, and I've been thinking a lot about this with coaching because now we're doing more online coaching, and so I'm having to think about my words more because that's the only way I'm really interacting with my clientele is like through email and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And so I, I have to practice language that's kind of like inviting them to try things as opposed to like telling them what to do. And when it comes to nutrition, like it's a very complex, potentially sensitive subject and there's a lot of, you know, people. Mostly looking for nutrition counseling because they're not happy where they are. Mm-hmm. and they want to get somewhere where they are.

Cody: 1:11:49

I mean, that's why people seek out a coach of any kind.

Tali: 1:11:51

Exactly. So I feel like I have to be thoughtful about the way that I'm approaching them in terms of like inviting them to think about or to try certain things rather than being like, you're gonna do this. But it's tricky because I had also listened to a podcast about like having clients that are maybe more challenging to work with or like aren't necessarily compliant and having to also be frank with them at times of what your expectations are. Bare minimum, you know, maybe not dump too much on their plate, but

Cody: 1:12:26

well I think there are maybe two different,

Tali: 1:12:28

like, I want, I guess what I'm saying is I just wanna like set people up to be able to assert those boundaries. Mm-hmm. or for me to find out what their boundaries are. Yeah. Cause when it's a new relationship, it's easy to. you know, you have to kind of feel it out in terms of like what the relationship can handle.

Cody: 1:12:44

Yeah. Well, I kind of almost look at it, if I were gonna draw it out as like, you've got this great big circle that you're willing to work in as a coach. Like you have boundaries that are outside, like people aren't gonna be rude to you or shit talk, you know, like extreme things. But there's like this big circle that's your boundary as a coach of who you're gonna be willing to mentor. And some of that might even be c compliance. Like if, if they're six months not compliant and bitching to you about it not working, but they're not doing what you say, then it's like, well you might need to find a different coach. You know, like that, that might be your boundaries. But then within that great big circle, you can give them the autonomy of saying, okay, now your, your circle is like two-thirds the size of that one. But you get to be wherever you want within that circle. Like you can move yours around within my boundaries as a coach. As my student, you can move that around. Mm-hmm. That's, it might be a little easier for me to articulate it in, in training situations. I have been a CrossFit coach for a total, like grand total of maybe 17 years altogether. Wow. I think muzzle honey. I think that I was in the body building type of world for like four years, five years. And then there was some crossover there. I've coached teams. I've been, I've not been a power lifting coach, but I worked alongside a power lifting team in one of the gyms I worked with, so I was like, kind of got into the culture of it a little bit. And I ran a lot of weightlifters just as a sort of crossover with the CrossFit world, gymnastics and me, like all this kind of stuff. I've taught running clinics and so I have this broad, he does it all, folks. I, I don't do it all. But what I'm saying is like I, this is the circle that I can work in. Like, I, I can't teach you Pilates. I don't know jack shit about Pilates. I know a little bit of what it looks like, but mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I could not teach Pilates. So I have this big broad circle though, that my clients can work in, but if they wanna do more body building type of workouts or more CrossFit, then it's like, okay, you choose your circle now within this big realm that I have.

Tali: 1:14:54

Yes. Like when we we're, when we talk about personal training clients that you and I are acquiring, if they are coming back from injury or something mm-hmm. you're the man to go to Yeah. I can help. Mm-hmm. but I'm not nearly as practiced. I see. You are in that realm. Like it's really. Important to assess those boundaries, not only in terms of like the external, trying to influence the internal, but the other way around too. Mm-hmm. like what you can give outside of those boundaries too. Like it goes both ways. Yeah, yeah.

Cody: 1:15:31

Yeah. It's funny, interesting that you'd bring up the injury thing too, because when it came to older populations or injured people, when I first, when I got my first job as a personal trainer, it's funny cuz it was at a commercial gym and I was only 29 mm. And it's so funny to look back at that and say like, oh, I was a personal trainer when I was 29. Cuz I, I feel like saying that I was so young, but at the time I was the old guy in the gym. Like the, all the other trainers were like 21, 18, geez, 20. My boss was 23, you know, and and that's why. within, literally, I think I was only there three months and I was given a management position to head up the personal training department at another facility for ballet Total Fitness, because I don't know the, the attrition rate and the, the length of career of an actual, of a personal trainer. The average is like five years or something. Like, people don't do that as a career. They don't, I mean, they do now, but back then, almost 20 years ago, it was sort of like an entry level job to people who might be going to school to be a physical therapist or ah, or they might just be, you know, trying it out for a couple years. They realize there's a lot of sales involved and they drop out, you know, like there's, it was a high attrition rate and so Interesting. The staff of trainers, for the most part, were a bunch of really young kids, and so I got good at training older people and injured people because everyone there was afraid to touch those clients And I was like, well, I'll f. Fucking go get a book, you know, I'll figure this out. Mm-hmm. And so I would like, I would literally be online researching how to, how to train somebody with Parkinson's disease because I know that next Tuesday is my first session with my new client who has Parkinson's disease, you know? And so I just figure it out. But after 20 years of doing that now it's a lot more intuitive. Yeah. But I think that has to do with a little bit of what we're talking about as far as being willing to broaden those boundaries at first. Yes.

Tali: 1:17:32

Yes. Cuz boundaries really shouldn't be a set and forget it for life. Exactly. Because hopefully no one who's listening is like, aiming for homeostasis or a static life. Yeah.

Cody: 1:17:44

Well I brought up subjective values before and it's like there's, people have different values, but you as an individual should be, should. Yeah, should I think to have a meaningful life. You can be the same river, but you're not the same water twice. You know, like the different, the water's moving. And so I feel like in order to really live life, you should be reassessing your values and realizing that those are gonna change. Just like they changed from one person to another. They're gonna change for yourself over time. Yes. There's certain non-negotiables, like there are certain things that I've come, took me 37 years, I think 37 years or so to, to stumble upon sort of my current philosophical outlook. As far as the foundation, I don't see that foundation changing. But other than the foundation, there's lots of room for, that's why it's foundation

Tali: 1:18:42

reassessing needs to build upon. Yeah. And there should be some non-negotiables, especially around our safety and our bodies and things like that.

Cody: 1:18:51

Yeah. I mean, you only get one life too, so.

Tali: 1:18:54

Yes. Well, and it's interesting that that came up because I actually have a note here about you know, you only have one body, and I don't mean in terms of like safety in terms like, I guess I was thinking more about like you have, no one else has like a right to your body, right. Other than yourself, whether that's like a medical thing or a safety thing or a sexual thing

Cody: 1:19:19

or the work that you do with that body.

Tali: 1:19:21

Sure. And so I had a note here about you only have one body, but that was in relation to a conversation that I had with a customer the other day about her kids who are grown now. But all the men in her family played football and a lot of them are really destroyed from it. But the thing about the culture of the sport is like you're kind of expendable. You know, they're gonna just kind of run you ragged and like if you say have a scholarship to school, and like that body of yours gets, you know, hurt to a point where you can't play, like there goes your scholarship, like mm-hmm. it's crazy to think about like the demands that are being put on someone, someone who's so young, like college kids are young or high school Yeah. To make decisions about, you know, I'm gonna put everything I have into this, even if it's not in my best interest long term. You know, you get one shot, one life, one body, and some people are okay with, you know, exercising that to the fullest. But that comes with great risk. And that I would say is maybe someone who's leaning more into boundlessness because, you know, they're willing to compromise whatever to. to potentially make the most out of that opportunity. Mm-hmm. And that's not just for training, but that's also like for drug use when it comes to sports. Like, it, it's crazy to think about not having any kind of like long term foresight about like what that's gonna do for your body. You're thinking about such a limited window in your life. Mm-hmm. And that I would say is a boundary that I would never cross. Like, and being in strength sports, like I just don't have an interest in doing that at all. And, and it's not even necessarily because it's a moral thing. It's just like, I don't see the point. I also don't have much riding on sports at the moment for that to ever feel like it's necessary. But I only have one body too, and like I'm already putting it through hell, so why take the extra risk?

Cody: 1:21:38

Yeah. So what's your, your bottom line takeaways for what you would try to communicate to somebody about learning to set boundaries? You know, we talked about how we're not given those tools as kids, right? And I'm just curious what your thoughts are on how to approach that.

Tali: 1:22:00

Well, I've mentioned in a few instances today about having all of your eggs in one basket and how that can be maybe not the best place to operate from. You know, trying to live a whole life I think is really important. And so like, if you're someone who really invests hard in your professional life, making sure that you have time for your family, your kids, your loved ones, like those are important boundaries to defend. I have a really good friend who, you know, Was she's a very, she has like great work ethic and she was very much pressured in a situation that was just, it's just unbelievable to think about. She has had a family member who was in a nearly fatal accident and her work was like, well, we're gonna still need you to like work for the next couple of days before you, like, fly home or whatever the fuck. And she, you know, she's, it's after having gotten the call that someone you love is like in the hospital and you don't know if they're gonna live or die, like that shit's crazy to me that anybody even like, have the audacity to say something like that. But as a result, she's so, so understanding and giving to people who also find themselves in difficult situations and if it, you know, has anything to do with your family, like she'll always encourage you to take the time off so, not putting everything in one basket, I think is important to realize that our lives have lots of dimensions to them. Mm-hmm. And if you're putting all of your eggs in one basket, there's no guarantee that that's gonna work out. And we want, we should maybe strive to put our energy into multiple places so that we can maintain a level of perspective and balance and energy that's going to keep us sane, keep us healthy, and keep us grounded. I would say that that's a bottom line for me. That's

Cody: 1:23:55

great. I think about you. I think what you're talking about too helps you, we were just talking about the other day about being able to communicate and relate to people and it's, I brought up a bible verse of yes, trying to be all things to ev all people, and not in a people pleasing way, but in a way to expose yourself to the world so that you can communicate with the world. You can't know how to engage with people with the most impact and effectiveness if you have no clue where they're coming from. Like, you have to be able to meet people where they're at and figure out where they're coming from. But you can only do that through exposing yourself to it. Yes. So, yeah, I think that's great. I think my bottom line is for you to establish a set of ethics for yourself that is something that you can stand upon. For me, that's the non-aggression principle. If you're not. familiar with it, you can look it up, but it's, you know, you're not gonna link to it in the show notes. I sure will. But it's, you know, essentially that what Tali had mentioned earlier is like you, no one has a greater claim to your body than you. Because if you claim that somebody else has more authority over your body than you are, then you're literally advocating for slavery. That's what slavery is, is somebody owning somebody else, right? Yeah. And so you own yourself and that's it. And if you, if you really, really buy into that idea of autonomy, then it's a deep rabbit hole, like where you can see that being violated in our culture constantly. And so consent is at the core of ethics for me that all interactions should be consensual. And so that is like a boundary that I'm just not willing to cross. hard. No. You know outside of that though, I mean, like, that's a big, that's a great big circle. It's kinda like the circle analogy I was talking about before. Mm-hmm. is that now, once I have that f that established, it creates a very wide world now for me to be able to move around in. Right. As long as it's consensual relationships, I can do what the fuck I want. Right. As long as I'm not infringing on somebody else's consensual. Yes. Lots of options there. Yeah. So then now it's up to me to draw boundaries of where I want to be, what the type of person I wanna be, the type of life I wanna live. And those are subjective values that are subject to change. And the only way that you can know whether you're making changes in the right direction or not, is to go out and live life. Be open and then maybe when you go a little too far in one direction, say, Nope, I'm gonna back that up and draw a line here, that I'm not gonna cross again.

Tali: 1:26:37

Yeah. And I think this comes up in so many of our episodes and I'm always the one to bring it up, but having some sort of way of assessing your choices, your experiences, whatever I think is so valuable, whether it's journaling or confiding in friends or loved ones, like just to be able to get some perspective rather than just kind of like plowing through life. Mm-hmm. unaware I think is so important because we talked about boundaries being this ever-changing thing and how can we expect to change them unless we can observe them.

Cody: 1:27:12

Yeah. I mean, it's ancient, ancient wisdom, right. Know thyself. Yes. You can't if you're not trying, like it takes work to know thyself. Yes. Feel

Tali: 1:27:23

like wrapping it up. Yes. I think know Thy itself is a beautiful place to end.

Cody: 1:27:27

All right. Well, I'll end it the way that I usually do. Just tell you that I love you and I love doing this with you. I love you too, honey See all. Next week.

Tali: 1:27:38

This episode was produced by Tali Zabari and Cody Limbaugh. Check out our writing coaching services and homesteading adventures at live all your life.com. For show notes, resources mentioned, or to submit a question or contribution, click on the podcast tab.