029 How Setbacks ARE Opportunities: Ep. 19 of The Philosophy Of Fitness

Avoiding pain is the same as avoiding growth. Of course, we shouldn't be seeking injury, but when it inevitably comes at us, we can re-frame our approach to it to create opportunities that might not have come without the injury! This applies to the gym as well as in the rest of our lives! Relationships, professional pursuits, and even hobbies. 

00:00 Intro and Icebreaker - Does Insta out you when you screenshot someone? 

05:48 Today's Topic: Using Injuries As Opportunities, in the gym and in life! 

06:32 The proper way to approach injuries has changed. RICE: Rest Ice Compression and Elevation are no longer recognized as the best approach to healing. Not only does appropriate movement speed healing, there is a tremendous benefit to the psychological impact of continuing to move and take action toward progress.

12:35 The Obstacle Is The Way (Two books we recommend on this concept, one by Ryan Holliday, one by Marcus Aurelius.

Setbacks can offer us some value in: 

1) Self Knowledge, what does that set-back reveal about ourselves? 

2) An opportunity to learn a new skill or pivot to have more time to do something else. 

3) That new direction might reveal something you love that you might have missed out on had you avoided the setback! 

4) A setback in one area can give you an opportunity to excel at something else that may have been put on the back burner! 

5) Pivoting due to setback gives you an opportunity to gain self-confidence because you're demonstrating grit and versatility! 

6) Overcoming the injury is it's own journey of self discovery and confidence building work. 

7)A setback might be an opportunity to come back better than your pre-injured self.

8) Avoiding pain can limit you from growth.

22:25 Even if the set-back is real, we can develop thoughts around it that don't serve us well. Some of this can be mitigated by where we place our attention. Focus on the set-back, or focus on the solutions? 

24:22 If you decide to "live with the injury" instead of addressing it and making efforts to heal, you can inadvertently cause more injuries! (This is as true in psychology as it is in physiology!)

25:04 It's just pain. Pain need not be avoided at all costs. sometimes it's ok to just acknowledge it go ahead and allow yourself to feel it. 

28:19 *** GRAPHI

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Transcript

 Episode: 029 How Setbacks ARE Opportunities: Ep. 19 of The Philosophy Of Fitness

[00:00:00] Cody: Hi, this is Cody Limbaugh. 

[00:00:17] Tali: And I'm Tali Zabari. And you're listening to the Philosophy of Fitness podcast 

[00:00:22] Cody: on the Lyceum network.

[00:00:43] Cody: So do you get notification when somebody screenshots something on Instagram? Are we muted? I'll figure it out. Keep 

[00:00:53] Tali: talking . I actually don't know. . I know that you used to, because I remember there [00:01:00] was this guy who I was really interested in. You actually met him this summer or this fall, I guess, at Kevin's wedding.

[00:01:08] Tali: Do you remember meeting Jack? I think his last name is, I shouldn't say his last name on the earth. . . Anyway, now he's a fiance and remember I was like, oh, I used to really like him. You definitely met each other. Yeah. 

But 

[00:01:21] Cody: that, what you just described is a category of men, so it's not like one person that stands out.

[00:01:27] Cody: What do you mean? Because we've met a lot of people at your friend's wedding and at Kevin's wedding, right? At Kevin's wedding and over the years there's been a lot of people that you've been like, Ooh, that guy used to peak my interest. Or I used, used to date that guy or whatever. There're 

[00:01:40] Tali: only two guys at that wedding that I had dated

[00:01:45] Tali: Okay. So there you go. And yeah, he. and I had been like texting over Instagram or DMing, whatever you wanna call it. And I remember I screenshot a photo that he sent me and he was like, oh, [00:02:00] so you wanted to keep that? And I was like, oh shit. He can see me . I think that's, I think that's real mean of Instagram to like out you that way.

[00:02:07] Tali: Yeah. But yeah. Well it happened to me with you early in our relationship because I was not an instagramer. I had like two posts and then I just abandoned it. Like, I don't get this app. It's just stupid. So I had it for years and then I didn't get on it till you, because I went to Mexico and you were on it all the time.

[00:02:24] Cody: And it was like my easiest way to, to reach you when I was, is that 

[00:02:27] Tali: how we videoed and messaged each other when I was out of country a lot? 

[00:02:30] Cody: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . That makes sense. And so but I remember screenshotting something and then you like commenting. On it. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, it's embarrassing, isn't it?

[00:02:40] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. But I still do it. So I was wondering if they still have the feature, because I have been screenshotting some things that you've sent me like within the last two days. Last two or three days. 

[00:02:49] Tali: I don't know, maybe I should look. However, there are different ways that you can post photos in your thread.

[00:02:55] Tali: You can like upload photos, right. And then they're just there. And then there's, [00:03:00] when you use the app itself and then send the photo, right? Then you have like the option for it to like disappear. Disappear or replay or, I hate that crap. 

[00:03:09] Cody: I know. Yeah. That's why I prefer when you upload photos to it because then I can just download them.

[00:03:15] Tali: I know, but sometimes it's fun to give you an a disappearing photo. Well then I screenshot 

[00:03:19] Cody: it . It's cheesy because I keep so many, I keep almost every photo you ever 

[00:03:23] Tali: send me. See I don't see anything. But you and I also send each other a lot of stuff, so it's kind of 

[00:03:28] Cody: hard to tell. Well, I wonder if people complained about it and they took it away.

[00:03:31] Cody: Cuz I don't think you've been getting notifications. . 

[00:03:35] Tali: I don't get notifications. You know what's weird is that I'll open the app and then all these things flood to the top. But that's only oddly with the people that I converse with the most. Right. Like I am getting notifications like on the top of my home screen, on my phone.

[00:03:52] Tali: Mm-hmm. , but not all of them. So like when you and I were texting all day yesterday on Instagram, I had to go into the app to see [00:04:00] them like nothing was popping up. It was really weird. No, that's really weird. Phones are shitty. They're get glitchy. 

[00:04:05] Cody: Yeah, they get glitchy. And we live in a rural area, so I think sometimes we don't get signal.

[00:04:11] Cody: Yeah. Cause there was a moment when we were texting just regular texts. I thought you were just ignoring me or like busy at work or something and it turns out you just weren't like it was a delay in giving and receiving those texts. Oh, how's that for an icebreaker? Great. Okay. , we threw the, we threw the ice

[00:04:30] Cody: I think so. There's no ice between us. I know there's not. 

[00:04:33] Tali: It's been a great morning, but I kind of like when we are recording or listening to our podcast and there's kind of this fade in of existing conversation rather than having this like Good Morning America kind of start, I always feel like those feel too choppy.

[00:04:50] Tali: Yeah. Yeah. Because you and I have been having great conversation all day long, so I feel like that just kind of sets the tone for like where we've been. Absolutely. 

[00:04:59] Cody: [00:05:00] Yeah. I don't want this to be a radio show. No. Hello America. Welcome to the top 

[00:05:05] Tali: five. You know, I mean that would be not all that of a stretch, sir Limbaugh.

[00:05:10] Tali: Yeah. . Yeah. The spot kind 

[00:05:12] Cody: of opened up . Yeah, I guess so. Next in line, just carry the name . Yeah. Yeah. What was this show called? The Rush. The Rush Limbach Show. Okay. But yeah, he took over Google for a long time. I couldn't get ranked anywhere with my name in it because Oh, if you typed in limbo, he, even if you typed in Cody Limbach.

[00:05:30] Cody: Oh, I do that all the time. I Google you often. He He would come up. 

[00:05:33] Tali: Yeah, he does. Yeah. It's weird, but for a while. But you could just be the Cody Limbach show. It would be very recognizable. . 

[00:05:40] Cody: Yeah, but I might, might not be the target audience.

[00:05:48] Tali: Alright, so today's topic is all about injuries. And Cody and I already have a pretty firm stance on how we feel about injuries. That they are not a reason to stop your life. They're not a [00:06:00] reason to stop your training. They're not a reason to stop your pursuits. It's an opportunity for pivoting, it's an opportunity for growth and reflection and reassessment.

[00:06:10] Tali: And I don't think that that's, preached all that often. Mm-hmm. , I kind of hope that that's not the case anymore, but you know, the take two weeks off, ice it, rest, you know, bring everything to a screeching halt is still very much a thing that people subscribe to and I think it can do a lot more harm than help.

[00:06:32] Cody: Yeah. So any health professionals out there listening? Hmm. I'm gonna out you because if you are prescribing rice, rest, ice compression, and elevation, if you are prescribing that for acute injuries, you are outing yourself as someone who is old school out of touch and not up to date with the latest research and the latest experiences with athletes of all.

[00:06:59] Cody: areas and [00:07:00] professions and, and like highest levels, if you're prescribing that you are, you need to like brush up on some shit because that is so outdated. And I'm, I'm a little passionate about it cuz I see it prescribed and I see it prescribed to kids. Recently I've had mm-hmm. , you know, we've had that experience where young athlete that we know was injured and that was the prescriptions like, take two weeks off and ice.

[00:07:19] Cody: And I'm like, no. That's like the worst thing. Yeah. That's the worst thing you can possibly do for especially a muscle injury. Like blood flow is key and ice restricts blood flow. You have to apply heat and movement and it needs to be safe movement. Of course. You know, I don't want an injured athlete with a, a calf injury to be running.

[00:07:41] Cody: That's obviously not appropriate. But she could certainly do some seated. Movements with her ankle and like keep blood flow going in there and get some cardio on a machine and like, and, and play heat and there's just so many things. Yeah. That would really improve recovery, [00:08:00] quality and speed of recovery.

[00:08:02] Cody: But it takes an active effort of recovery. Sitting on your ass and doing nothing is the worst thing you can do. 

[00:08:08] Tali: It is, and it's not even just addressing the injury itself. We are constantly talking about the practice of fitness and the practice of other pursuits that we wanna be better in. And that requires diligence.

[00:08:22] Tali: Mm-hmm. , you know, if you go on vacation for two weeks and don't give any attention to those areas, getting started again is so hard. We talk about that always. Yeah. And so anytime you're bringing something to a complete standstill, you should almost have that like pit in your stomach of like, oh fuck, I'm gonna have to restart this all over again.

[00:08:43] Tali: And I think. , the less like peaks and valleys you can have in that regard, the better your recovery will be. Mm-hmm. and the better your practice will be. Mm-hmm. , you know, just standstills not a good idea when it comes to trying to level up or persist. 

[00:08:58] Cody: Yeah. You know, you make a good [00:09:00] point cuz it, there's like the psychological aspect as well as the physical aspect.

[00:09:03] Cody: Mm-hmm. and yes, stopping for an injury just is demoralizing. It's, it can cause lit like literal depression, anxiety, it can make it, like you said, harder to get started again. So there's that whole psychological aspect. But then it's also de deregulating your harm hormones, you know, and that kind of thing, which is the exact thing you need for recovery of an injury.

[00:09:31] Cody: growth hormone and the, the types of mechanisms that are in play when you are working out and when you are practicing your fitness. So I think 

it's, 

[00:09:42] Tali: yeah, I think it's important also to mention that there is a flip side too. I know that you've seen this, I think about it in the gym that we worked in together most readily because that was the most recent, I guess.

[00:09:53] Tali: But there are many times that we have clients who come in who are injured and are unwilling [00:10:00] to make any modifications. Yeah. And therefore continuously re-injure themselves. So there's definitely a sweet spot. There's definitely a spectrum and there's definitely a need to reassess, like stop and reassess mm-hmm.

[00:10:18] Tali: and be like, okay, what can I do that isn't going to further this injury? But that isn't gonna stop me completely. Yeah. So you have to take those things into consideration too, cuz that client gets super annoying where it's like, cool. You can't do effing anything now. Yeah. Because you, well this dug the hole 

[00:10:37] Cody: too far.

[00:10:37] Cody: Yeah. This topic warrants a pretty deep hole. So this is gonna be an interesting. Conversation, I think, because it can apply to so many other areas of your life. So hang on, if you're listening. I know, I have 

[00:10:49] Tali: so many things 

[00:10:50] Cody: come to mind. There's, there's a lot of carryover here into real world applications outside of fitness for sure.

[00:10:55] Cody: But I wanna stay on the fitness thing for just a second because it's gonna help, I think, bring [00:11:00] those analogies to life later on. What you're talking about is, Ignoring the injury and working through or just trying to like push through it. And there's a big difference between that and the term I had mentioned, which is active recovery.

[00:11:13] Cody: Mm-hmm. . So, you know, taking an active role in the healing process and not just sitting around waiting for your body to respond because that's not how the body works. Well, you're not helping it do it's job. Yeah. The body responds to stimulus and so you need to give it the proper stimulus, not, not continue to try to max out your deadlift when your back is out.

[00:11:32] Cody: That's not what I'm saying, . But you probably should come in and do some like reverse hypers and some super lightweight Jefferson curls, you know, like get the body go for a walk. Yeah, go for a walk. Do so go for a walk. Is the cure all for me, . And, and for anyone who's experiencing low back pain, try some high step up.

[00:11:52] Cody: Find a staircase and skip two or three steps if you can. Not recklessly, but just slow movement. But big, big [00:12:00] step ups like that are walking up a hill or doing step ups onto a box. That really, it moves your hips back and forth when you do that and it really helps with low back stuff. 

[00:12:09] Tali: So. Well, that's how I got that, how you and I got onto doing the hill walk over here on Century.

[00:12:13] Tali: Yeah. Is because my back was super fried. Just, I didn't even have an explanation for it. I wasn't even sure mm-hmm. , why it was so angry with me and you and I started walking the hill like once a week helps, didn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That and heat and the angry, a heated blanket. Everyone buy one . Yeah. 

[00:12:33] Cody: Heat pad, heated blanket.

[00:12:35] Cody: Yeah. So, yeah. So that's kind of the fitness side of it. We touched a little bit on the psychology of it, but there's, I kind of wrote down a list of sort of opportunities that came to mind on this. One is just the idea that the obstacle is the way. Mm-hmm. . And if you think of it that way, cuz we always want to avoid injury.

[00:12:56] Cody: And of course we want to avoid injury. We want to avoid injury in our [00:13:00] clients and in ourselves and as athletes and as just people. Of course, nobody wants to be injured. But oftentimes injury can be a source of self-knowledge. So what I would tell people a lot of times when they would come into a CrossFit gym for the first time, and all they had seen is YouTube and news media and people making fun of it on sitcoms and stuff like that.

[00:13:22] Cody: And they were just skeptical about the safety of it. And what I would usually say is, well, oftentimes in my experience as a coach, CrossFit does not cause injuries, but it reveals them. because you are coming in and you're moving your body in ways that you are not accustomed to, and you're pushing boundaries that you're not accustomed to pushing.

[00:13:44] Cody: Mm-hmm. . And then an injury occurs and it's like, well, the reason you have that low back pain is because you're so as is strained from hill sprints. But it wasn't the hill sprint that was the problem. The problem was your SOAs was too [00:14:00] short and tight to begin with. Yeah. It shows and then you pushed through on, on a sprint.

[00:14:04] Tali: It shows weakness, it shows imbalances, and that mm-hmm. , I think is why programming has to be. So strategic. Yeah. You have to really be thoughtful about balancing things 

[00:14:18] Cody: out. Sure. Balancing things out and also ramping up people safely. Mm-hmm. , you know, from a, from a couch to CrossFit kind of thing.

[00:14:24] Cody: Mm-hmm. , you know, like a, a program of some kind. But so that's one thing, self-knowledge, so injuries can reveal things and that each one of these can carry over to other areas in life. So, we'll, we'll touch on that later, but the second thing on my list was it gives you an opportunity to pivot to a new skill.

[00:14:41] Cody: Mm-hmm. . So if if you have a leg injury, then perhaps you can learn to do some sort of technique with your arms or something. Learn Indian clubs or something, you know, like you have an opportunity to take the time you were investing and place it somewhere else to learn a 

[00:14:58] Tali: new skill. Yeah. There are so many other things [00:15:00] that you can do with your body.

[00:15:01] Tali: Yeah. And it might be almost like a blessing in disguise. You might come across something out of, you know improvising or recommendation or things that you just wouldn't have thought to do mm-hmm. because you weren't able to do what you normally do. Yeah. 

[00:15:18] Cody: And then fall in love with that thing. Yeah.

[00:15:20] Cody: I love that idea so much. I, I've heard that story many times. Have you? I've people who are like, oh, well I've, I'm in this sport now because I got injured in this other thing, or I'm doing this thing now because I got injured in this other thing. 

[00:15:32] Tali: Oh man. I feel like that really is the story in both weightlifting and CrossFit.

[00:15:36] Tali: You know, even though they have a reputation of intensity you know, weightlifting is considered a very safe sport in terms of its injury rate and CrossFit can really be thought of as you know, it's gpp, it's. Physical preparedness, like you are really able to exercise all different kinds of [00:16:00] modalities.

[00:16:00] Tali: And I feel like a lot of people who might have been excelling in traditional sports and you know, maybe aged out of them or could, you know, couldn't make it to the big leagues or whatever, find a home in CrossFit because it will give them a similar stimulus mm-hmm. and it will give them that same like competitive mm-hmm.

[00:16:18] Tali: need mm-hmm. . But they're probably being exposed to all sorts of things. Unless CrossFit is where everything began for you, it's very likely that if you go into a CrossFit gym, you are gonna learn something you've never seen or done 

[00:16:29] Cody: before. Yeah. So you, you just touched on my next point, which was related to that, which was, you know, I had said it gives you an opportunity to pivot to a new skill, which also could lead you to discover something new that you didn't even, that you would not have been exposed to, and then all of a sudden find out that you love it.

[00:16:46] Cody: And so, in that way, the injury was an opportunity for you to discover something. Great. The other thing is getting stronger in another area. Mm-hmm. . So I remember at one point before I met you, I think it was [00:17:00] just before I met you, you had come off of a really intense squat program, and I believe that was due to an injury, right?

[00:17:08] Cody: Where you had backed off some things in order to just like focus on a really heavy squat program for a long time. Yeah. And as a result, you were strong as fuck, like you were in the CrossFit gym, you were squatting as much as the dudes in the gym. And it was really fun. It was fun for me to see that.

[00:17:27] Cody: Yeah. And yeah. And but the reason you were so strong was because of a setback? Yes. So 

[00:17:32] Tali: yeah, I had injured my shoulder a couple of times. Mm-hmm. I wrote my rotator cuff on my left side. Whether it was from snatching or, you know, muscle up attempts, just all sorts of Kind of explosive movements requiring some sort of rotation there.

[00:17:49] Tali: Had effed up my shoulder and I just had to work through it. Over many, many years, I would say. Now it's [00:18:00] not an issue at all, but there was a really long time where, you know, I had to have my coach like wrench and hang onto my lats and just like, you know, refund them really hard. Or I'd have to put a lacrosse ball.

[00:18:14] Tali: into my superspinatus or you know, I went to physical therapy for a really long time and there was a point where, you know, I couldn't even hold a training bar overhead. That was like the worst of the worst. Mm-hmm. kind of on topic, you know, when I went to go see a physical therapist who did not know anything about CrossFit, I wasn't lifting at the time just yet, but they said that they didn't want me to touch a barbell for like six weeks.

[00:18:39] Tali: Like, don't even look at it. And I immediately went to another practitioner who did CrossFit so that they knew like, what. I had available to me. Yeah. Other than rest. So definitely relevant here. Yeah, I think, but I just, 

[00:18:54] Cody: I I just, I'm hold that thought cuz I don't wanna interrupt you to make you forget, but I think you just outed some people in the medical [00:19:00] community too because when, when you have a hurt shoulder and a doctor says, stop exercising, like, don't go to the gym, that tells me they don't go to the fucking gym.

[00:19:10] Cody: Mm-hmm. , they are not walking any kind of fitness journey because they should know it's non-negotiable. Well that it's not only non-negotiable, but there are other options. Yeah. You can isolate your shoulder and not injure it and do many, many, many other things. And so that just bothers me so much when, when health professionals, medical professionals, whatever, what have you tell people to be sedentary.

[00:19:35] Cody: It just irks me, . So I had just had to 

[00:19:38] Tali: stop. Well, what's interesting about working with Dave is that, you know, when you are injured, you're so. apt to wanna baby it. Mm-hmm. , it's almost unconscious, you know, like if you hurt your shoulder, you just keep it at your side. Yep. You know, I would have a hard time putting on my jacket.

[00:19:53] Tali: It would be hard to plug, like put my seatbelt on. Yep. And, you know, I just got used to [00:20:00] just like, keeping it at my side and like not trying to mess with it. And what Dave, I've mentioned Dave before just a really gifted lifter and chiropractor that I worked with for many years. You know, he taught me that it's really important to, to take those injured areas through full range of motion.

[00:20:21] Tali: Mm-hmm. , you know, because a lot of the. Inability to move them can be very psychological. Yeah, absolutely. Because we develop a fear, we develop such a resistance to the pain. Mm-hmm. or anticipating the pain. That's really like the important distinction is that there's an anticipation of pain and so we decide not to even go there.

[00:20:42] Tali: Mm-hmm. , and of course I'm, I'm sure people are already hearing that that can carry over into our life so much that just the anticipation of being hurt can keep us from moving forward. But he taught me that I needed to, you know, work my internal and external rotation, even if [00:21:00] it scared me, you know, I'd pinned down my peck, you know, do it in a really slow, controlled way.

[00:21:04] Tali: Mm-hmm. so that it was safe, but I had to do it to retrain my body. To be able to lift heavy again. Yeah. And I, you know, after that injury have been able to lift the heaviest I ever have in my life. Yeah. So to be able to fully recover from injury is completely possible. But before we move on to the next topic, I just wanna say that I had decided to do the small of back squat program.

[00:21:29] Tali: So anybody who really wa there are a lot of back swap programs out there, but this one is just like so effing hardcore, especially mentally because it's the only lift you're doing because it's so demanding of you, it really recommends that you're not doing anything else at the time. And it was kind of like in a joking way, like a default for a lot of us on my team in weightlifting.

[00:21:52] Tali: Like if you had a shoulder injury, like it's time to do small off again, you can really put a lot on your squat. It's very important to make sure that your [00:22:00] form is legitimate before you attempt such high volume. Mm-hmm. with squatting. But yeah, it really like, Propelled me very far ahead of many other people.

[00:22:11] Tali: Like there was a a speculation at one point that my squat was too strong mm-hmm. , that it was hindering me in ways that I needed like more focus on technique. So, yeah. Shout out to small love . 

[00:22:24] Cody: Yeah. Well, you had mentioned the psychological, like the hesitancy of mm-hmm. not wanting to move it because of the fear of the pain.

[00:22:32] Cody: And I was listening to a podcast the other day where somebody had a chronic pain from an injury, and I don't remember what the injury was, and I don't remember the podcast. So sorry, but, but the story is accurate. You got nothing. But it was actually a, a podcast on psychedelics, and the guy had said that he took psilocybin once and it cured his chronic pain.

[00:22:54] Cody: And the host was sort of skeptical. It's like, well, how is that even possible? Like, what. , [00:23:00] what are you talking about? Like cuz 

[00:23:01] Tali: pain sounds too good to be true or too simplistic 

[00:23:03] Cody: because we think of pain coming from an injury. Like it's a signal, it's an important signal for you to feel pain. Mm-hmm. . But what can happen, and I know that this is something that research is really starting to tease out is that you, if you have chronic pain, sometimes chronic pain is from what was once an acute injury and your brain has been train.

[00:23:28] Cody: To the pain. So you're literally feeling like a phantom pain for an injury that doesn't even exist anymore. Oh my God. And so, yeah. And so that's, that's wild, right? That's to think of it that way. That's, yeah. And that's why in his case, psychedelics helped him because he was able to just address this. Like, I don't wanna feel this way anymore.

[00:23:46] Cody: He had this thought while he was high of like, I don't want to feel that anymore. This is, it's not serving me. It's not, it's not helping me at all. I 

[00:23:54] Tali: can see why you're so intrigued for so 

[00:23:55] Cody: many reasons. Yeah. and, and it was like a light switch in his case. Now I'm not [00:24:00] saying Sure, obviously, that psychedelics are gonna cure your injuries or your pain, cuz that's probably not true.

[00:24:05] Cody: But just to, to point out that stopping for an injury or babying an injury, putting too much focus on the injury itself instead of the recovery process can probably aid in that whole training of the brain for long-term pain. 

[00:24:22] Tali: Well, and if you don't address your injuries appropriately or. You know, have the intention to come out on the other side of them as opposed to just like living with it for the rest of your life.

[00:24:33] Tali: Yeah. You can fuck up the rest of your body easily. It's a chain system here, like you are going to be compensating for that injury. in some way. Yeah. Which can very well tack something else and lead to more injury. 

[00:24:47] Cody: Yeah. I remember Dave you know, when you were doing your shoulder stuff, you were still doing a lot of that when I met you because I remember like a lot of like TheraBand 

[00:24:54] Tali: stuff and Yeah.

[00:24:55] Tali: Well I remember like 

[00:24:56] Cody: squeezing kettlebell stuff. I remember squeezing your peck for you mm-hmm. as you'd [00:25:00] move or like squeezing your la and have you like do overhead stuff. So I remember assisting you with that. But I remember him at the time talking about this. I don't know if it was like a workshop I took from him maybe, but he was just like, it's just pain.

[00:25:12] Tali: He always was say that to me when he's like, he's like scraping the shit out of my collarbones. Yeah. He and stuff. And I'm sweating. Yeah. And crying and he's like, it's just pain. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. Yeah. . 

[00:25:24] Cody: But it's seem, it's a good point. Like it's only pain. Like you don't have to avoid pain at all costs because sometimes that's not effective.

[00:25:31] Cody: Sometimes pain is effective. It's the way through to just go ahead and just feel it. It's fine. You just go ahead and feel that. It's kind of like the other way. I know it sucks, but just go ahead and feel that and then move through it and you know, it'll all be better. You said that 

[00:25:44] Tali: to me the other night when I was crying in your arms.

[00:25:46] Tali: You were like, yeah, it's okay to cry. Yeah. It's okay to feel it. 

[00:25:50] Cody: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm, I'm taken back to a conversation cuz you and your mother are like eternal optimists and you're always trying to like look at the bright side and everything. [00:26:00] And when I was on vacation down there at your mom's place and I got covid and I was pissed off, I was like, I was mad that because my job was so demanding and so taxing and there was so much time away from you.

[00:26:13] Cody: And I had, we hadn't had a vacation forever. We hadn't been, yeah, we hadn't traveled in a long, long time. Kind of our first travel probably since Covid and all that. 

[00:26:21] Tali: Like no, we have, we've gone to California and several times Are you talking about this last, we just came from Dory's wedding. Yeah. Dory's wedding.

[00:26:29] Tali: Yeah. Well it had been a long time, 

[00:26:30] Cody: California, several times before then. It had been a long time and I was frustrated. And I was pissed off that I like Well, 

[00:26:36] Tali: cause we took like 10 days off. It was gonna be awesome. 

[00:26:38] Cody: Yeah. And I was sick for the entire trip except for the first day and I was just sort of like mad about it.

[00:26:44] Cody: And you and your mom were like, you don't have to be mad about it, you know, it's okay. Da da da. And I'm like, you know what? It's okay to be mad. All right. like, just let me feel this cuz I'm pissed and I think I, it's okay to be pissed for a little bit, you 

[00:26:56] Tali: know? Don't you think there's a difference though, that like, you can be pissed but you [00:27:00] shouldn't like add to your own suffering?

[00:27:03] Tali: Because that's kind of like where I try to draw the line is like, yeah, the circumstances might be shy, but I'm not gonna like pile on more. And I feel like that's something you do well, 

[00:27:14] Cody: well I get that. But it's there's also, you gotta clear that. It's kinda like you gotta clear that shit out. You can't just pretend like, well, it's okay, everything's fine when it's not.

[00:27:25] Cody: You know, like it's okay to go ahead and just feel it first and acknowledge that, yeah, this kind of sucked. And then like, the next day get over it, you know, like, or even a couple hours later, get over it, you know? That's fine. 

[00:27:36] Tali: Well, it's, it's definitely attractive to like deal with it all right up front.

[00:27:41] Cody: Yeah. So, yeah. Before I even get to that last point is the you were talking about the importance of moving through full range of motion and I promised that we were gonna move past the fitness. Realm. Oh yeah. And get into actual real world analogies.

[00:27:57] Cody: But just one more thing about that, , you, [00:28:00] there's a video called The Fuzz, that's the title of the video. And so if you google the fuzz and then maybe like fascia or cadaver or something like that, it's Ew. Yeah. It's a cadaver video. So those of you are you for real, for weak stomach? Yeah. You don't, don't wanna watch it if you have, is it on super sensitive to that?

[00:28:20] Cody: Yeah. YouTube, they have cadavers on YouTube. Sure. Yeah. It's a medical video. And so it's this doctor showing you what happens if you baby an injury for too long and it's, oh, this is the 

[00:28:29] Tali: matted fascia, isn't it? Yeah. Ugh. 

[00:28:32] Cody: Yeah. And so this person had like frozen shoulder or whatever. Well, the reason that happens sometimes is from babying a fairly minor injury.

[00:28:39] Tali: Oh yeah. Frozen shoulder isn't like an instantaneous occurrence. Yeah. It's like, you are not recovering. 

[00:28:46] Cody: And so this person did not move their shoulder through full range of motion from what was probably a solvable injury. And that babying of the shoulder and just like keeping their arm down at their side literally grew physically like you [00:29:00] can see it in the cadaver, you know, this white thick fascia that encased the shoulder to isolate it and literally built like a cast on their shoulder inside their body and, and 

[00:29:11] Tali: someone who recently butchered a deer.

[00:29:15] Tali: Yeah. I can really understand how fascia has that potential. Yeah, it is tough stuff. 

[00:29:21] Cody: Yeah, it is really, really strong material and it, it builds up just tiny little, you know, spiderweb thin layer at a time. But as it gets thicker and thicker, it literally can just completely immobilize your joint. So I just wanted to point that out for anyone who wants to geek out on it.

[00:29:37] Cody: I'll put a link in the show notes. But the fuzz video is very inspiring to. Convince you to keep moving your body because the more stationary you are, and this doesn't, it just apply to injuries. It's also like time you seated or not reaching up overhead. And the reason why older folks cannot reach up over the head is because they don't do it.

[00:29:59] Cody: [00:30:00] It's not because they're old. And that's part of the point of this video. It's not like you just lose it one day. Yeah. You don't just lose your ability to reach up overhead. The, you just lose it because you don't use it enough. And so it's a very inspiring video if you have a stomach to be able to watch this kind thing.

[00:30:14] Cody: I say sounds like a gross video. Uh, But I just wanted to, I didn't wanna forget to mention that, so, okay. That's it. And then my last point, and we can come back to these points as far as like analogies to real life, but I think we're gonna so I said get stronger in another area and then my fifth one is, Build back better, but not in a political sense.

[00:30:32] Cody: I wish 

[00:30:32] Tali: you could see my face right now. Everybody that was, I was just like disgusted and shocked all at the same time. , 

[00:30:38] Cody: I almost, I almost made my wife throw up just now. 

[00:30:42] Tali: Yeah. Not that it's a shame that that has been hijacked that, yeah. 

[00:30:45] Cody: Freezing. Yeah. So not build back better America who political crap.

[00:30:52] Cody: But for real. Just as you mentioned, when you rehabbed your shoulder and you did it right, and you took, you know, you got [00:31:00] help and you got direction coaching and you, and manual therapy, and you did your homework and you did it right, and you build it back, and then you were able to lift the heaviest weights you've ever lifted overhead mm-hmm.

[00:31:11] Cody: after the injury, right? Which means you did, you built it back and it was to a point was after. still, but it was better than pre-injury. But still, yeah. You 

[00:31:20] Tali: know, I obviously like being in the athletic world, like you meet a lot of people who have had injuries. It's often a question that we ask when we take on new clients.

[00:31:29] Tali: You know, what injuries past or present should I know about? But you know, there are people who have had, you know, shoulder hip repairs, you know, surgical repairs. And I've become really convinced that even if I did have some sort of like very serious tear, I didn't fully tear my shoulder just a partial tear.

[00:31:51] Tali: Hmm. I don't think I would turn to surgery based on that building back better. That repair [00:32:00] doesn't address all the reps, I guess, that you can get under your belt in order. to really come full circle or even beyond your original capacity. Yeah, 

[00:32:14] Cody: absolutely. And I've, I've experienced that with clients too, with meniscus surgeries.

[00:32:19] Cody: Mm-hmm. they're, I I would highly recommend just avoiding them unless you feel it's absolutely like you've exhausted every other approach because they, the success rate of meniscus surgeries are about the same as just physical therapy. And so if the results are about the same, you're better off not getting cut into and like surgically altered.

[00:32:41] Cody: Because I've, I've known many people, friends a and athletes that I've coached who have had both scenarios Yeah. Both surgeries and who have come back from them and who denied their surgery and worked back and were able to heal much better than the people who had the surgeries. Yeah. Like the surgeries [00:33:00] come back to haunt you 10 years later.

[00:33:02] Cody: So, yeah. 

[00:33:02] Tali: I mean, there are a lot of things that happen in. like reconstructive surgeries that will limit your ability to do anything. Mm-hmm. , you know, I think about your parents who have had a lot of surgeries on their joints and things mm-hmm. and there are just certain ways that they cannot move. And I think about what you were just saying, like, people who are older who can't lift overhead.

[00:33:23] Tali: Like if you are like eliminating those things from your range of motion or your body's ability, then like mm-hmm. , you, you will just lose them. Right? Yeah. It's hard. It's super scary to think about. 

[00:33:37] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. My dad has several fused joints. Mm-hmm. and those fused joints are now causing issues upstream and downstream from where the fusion is.

[00:33:46] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't solve everything. All kinds of hip joints. Now he's got all kinds of hip pain that he didn't have before because his ankle is fused, you know? Right. So, . 

[00:33:56] Tali: And I think, I mean, we're always gonna be advocates for moving your body in [00:34:00] some way, but the cool thing about injuries is that, you know, anytime I meet somebody who tells me about an injury that they have or a really serious one that like quote unquote took them out of the game, I always say that that makes a smarter athlete mm-hmm.

[00:34:14] Tali: because Oh yeah. You have almost been forced to navigate other avenues that become a part of your training, that give you stronger joints, that give you fuller range of motion. Like you have this incredible opportunity with an injury to be able to explore other avenues that can actually make you better at your craft.

[00:34:31] Tali: Mm-hmm. , you know the world of fitness is incredibly vast. There's a lot of different schools of thought and lots of different practices, and they all can intertwine really gorgeously. Mm-hmm. if you let them, you know, if bringing Indian clubs into weightlifting is amazing, like for your wrists, for your shoulders, for your elbows, like, , all of that is so important.

[00:34:57] Tali: Mm-hmm. you know, gymnastics, kettle [00:35:00] bells, like all these things that are not a part of like, traditional weightlifting that I've learned through, you know, either CrossFit or just out of interest, but also through rehab, like Yeah. I have a whole like, shoulder routine with the kettle bell that I learned from Dave and I give it to all of my clients cuz it's amazing.

[00:35:17] Tali: Mm-hmm. , I give it to them even if they don't have shoulder problems. Well yeah, cuz you're preventing the problem. Exactly. Yeah. It just makes you smarter all around. Yeah. 

[00:35:25] Cody: I think that I had self-knowledge on there, but you're right that it's not just self-knowledge, like it can also make you, it's an education opportunity, so For sure.

[00:35:33] Cody: Yeah. So that's, that's it for my like fitness bullet points here and I'd like to kind of revisit those with analogies to how those can apply to real life. But before I do, what, what do you got 

[00:35:46] Tali: over there? I mean, I think that they're all pretty. closely related to this, but the real world issues. Yeah.

[00:35:54] Tali: And you know, we, you, I had written a note as you were speaking when you were talking about ice [00:36:00] and rice. Yeah. And you know, stopping or slowing down the blood flow. And, you know, if you think about that in a real world situation where, you know, we try to attempt ways to keep ourselves from feeling hurt mm-hmm.

[00:36:18] Tali: it's all inevitable. Mm-hmm. , you're just stuffing it away. You're just slowing it down. And like you said, these things come back to haunt you. And when it comes to hurt that we have felt as young people or in relationships that become resentment, like those things don't just go away. Mm-hmm. , just because you are trying to avoid feeling that hurt doesn't mean whatever trauma or whatever happened, or whatever you're feeling.

[00:36:47] Tali: Isn't there, you can't just stifle it away. Mm-hmm. . And that's how I feel about ice , . 

[00:36:56] Cody: Yeah. No, I think that's a good point. I, it's closely [00:37:00] related to something that I had put on there. Just like, as an analogy, if you have a, a bad dating experience and then you decide to take a break from dating, well now you're just left off with a bad experience.

[00:37:11] Cody: And so your mindset is one of fear and that dating is bad and that, yeah, that, that this is gonna suck. Or, you know, you, you've, you, you build self-conscious and then the longer you go without that, Date again with somebody else. The longer you go with that, the more that fear and insecurity builds up. Yeah.

[00:37:30] Cody: And so it's just like the injury that we talked about in the physical world like that, that's such an emotional connection as well. If, and it's not just dating, I mean anything set out with an art project and it turns out to be shit, and then you give up and then you think you should, you don't have it in you.

[00:37:46] Cody: You know, like that, that just carries over to so many things that we experience in life that if we sort of, if we tuck our head and leave the field defeated, it's gonna be that much harder to go back out and play [00:38:00] again. Yeah. 

[00:38:00] Tali: Yeah. Well, and it's also, . I love when this comes into question, the assignment of good or bad value.

[00:38:07] Tali: Mm-hmm. injury doesn't necessarily have to be thought of as like a bad thing. Yeah. There have been times though that like, you know, I would go in to see Dave and you know, something would be out of whack and I would tell him like, I feel responsible for this. I feel mm-hmm. like, I fucked up somehow and now I'm injured.

[00:38:29] Tali: Yeah. You know, like there are gonna be things out of my control. Part of the sport is pushing your limits. Injuries a part of it. Mm-hmm. , it's the same way that I tell my clients, like, you're gonna miss lifts, get used to it. Mm-hmm. . And that's not to say like, you're gonna fuck your body up. Like that's not, that's not really I think like on the table for everyone, but it's incredibly like,

[00:38:51] Cody: No, I think you really make a great point is that, like, I've heard the analogy that if you, like in car [00:39:00] racing, if you never run into the wall once in a while, you're probably never gonna win a race either. Mm-hmm. , because you're not pushing those limits. Right. And that's so applicable to all of life.

[00:39:09] Cody: Like there is no way to continue living your life and stay injury free or avoid emotional turmoil or whatever. But this life is 

[00:39:18] Tali: messy. Right. But this is also like, if you think about the other podcasts that we've recorded like this alongside like seasons you know periodization, like Sure. All of those things need to be considered too, because you can't continue to grind continuously.

[00:39:34] Tali: Continuously, because that is how you can, you know, definitely be asking for injury. And I'd say the same could be for like you brought up dating. Mm-hmm. , if you are, I guess like setting yourself up. in the same situation over and over again, and you're not like trying a different avenue or if you're not, you know, changing your standards for what you're looking for.

[00:39:58] Tali: Mm-hmm. , like, there's a lot, there [00:40:00] are a lot of variables I think that can be managed. Mm-hmm. or like your exposure, like online dating is super effing furious for so many reasons. But, you know, maybe it means that you need to like, try to meet somebody organically for a little while. Like, yeah. It'll still be on the table for you to come back to, but, you know, hitting your head against a wall continuously, like you said, is just gonna breed this belief.

[00:40:22] Tali: Mm-hmm. , that dating sucks. What am I doing here? Yeah. And I 

[00:40:26] Cody: think that's, You're bringing a good point into how the how injury is like an educational experience because in that case, you know, with the dating analogy, it's like, well, I need to change something. I need to change Yes. The type of people I'm seeing or the location that I'm looking for them in.

[00:40:41] Cody: You know, maybe bars are not working out for me. Probably not. Maybe I need to like, join a meetup group of something interesting and that I would love to share a common value with, or go to an art class or something like, you know, meet somebody in other arenas rather than stopping for the injury, but [00:41:00] instead learning from that.

[00:41:01] Cody: Like, what, what can I change to, to get past this? 

[00:41:04] Tali: I definitely have kind of like a feeling when it comes to, like, friends of mine, for instance, who feel like they're spinning their wheels when it comes to their dating lives. Mm-hmm. , I mean, that's just on the table all the time. Mm-hmm. , and I'm like, well, what are you doing different?

[00:41:19] Tali: Yeah. And they're like, nothing. And I'm like, well, duh. Yeah. Duh. And I'm not saying that like I've done everything perfectly, but like I broke a lot of what I thought were like my quote unquote rules when it came to you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was like, don't shit where you eat . You know? I had been dating my landlord who lived in the same building as me for a year before I met you.

[00:41:44] Tali: And you dated coaches before that. And I dated coaches before that and I was like, okay, probably not a good idea to date or fall in love with somebody who is like in my personal space. Mm-hmm. or in an arena that's not conducive to dating or that should not be a [00:42:00] priority. And then I met you and you were my boss, you know, , like that's textbook 1 0 1, like shit where you eat example number one.

[00:42:09] Tali: And yeah, I had made the rule for myself, well maybe that isn't really breaking my streak if I did it again. Right. 

[00:42:17] Cody: I suppose, but you were open to different things. I mean, at the time you were, you were in a much different mode as far as your dating goes and you were even considering like celibacy for a little bit there.

[00:42:26] Tali: I was considering celibacy. I forgot about that. It's just kind of that didn't last long. . 

[00:42:32] Cody: Yeah. It's hard, hard to imagine for me, 

[00:42:34] Tali: you in that rhythm. Well, so that was me trying to break my pattern. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm, cause I felt like I was very sexual, sexually free and and you know, for me to establish a connection with somebody or to like really feel like I was trying them on, if you will, testing out our sexual chemistry was really important to me.

[00:42:52] Tali: Mm-hmm. . And so I was like, okay, maybe that's the misstep. I'm gonna try not to do that. And I made it like a couple weeks [00:43:00] maybe, like, I'm not really sure. I'm not gonna get put a number on it because I really don't remember. But, but I'm so 

[00:43:05] Cody: glad I stepped in there. Yeah. Broke the streak. But 

[00:43:09] Tali: I don't know.

[00:43:10] Tali: I guess we can, like, I don't, maybe, maybe this is not a great example of what we were talking about, but I think you, if you find yourself in any kind of rut, or if you are finding yourself in a place of hurt on a regular basis, you have to assess what you can change. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can only change you.

[00:43:32] Cody: Yeah. I think a lot of people look at dating or really success in any ar arena as sort of a lottery. Like like they're playing the slot machine with their Tinder profile, like swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, and then, you know, whatever attention they get, it's almost like a filtering system where, okay, I'm gonna get this many matches, and then out of those matches I'm gonna have conversations with this many people, which will produce this many dates.

[00:43:56] Cody: And then out of one of those, somebody's gotta click, you know, like, or it's just a matter of [00:44:00] finding the right one with the chemistry or whatever. Mm-hmm. . And it's like, well, maybe. Tinder isn't the right approach. Like, rather than playing at like a lottery game of how many people can I go through to find the right one?

[00:44:11] Cody: Maybe like I said, change, you know, change the approach completely. Yeah. 

[00:44:15] Tali: So, well that was something that I definitely was trying at the time, is that I wanted to meet people organically. Yeah. I had like really exhausted online dating at that point and was super fed up by it. And not to say that I didn't have a good experience, I did at one point, date and fall in love with somebody from online when I was still living in Seattle.

[00:44:36] Tali: So it was a few years before we met each other. You and I. So it's not to say that it's not possible. There's plenty of people who have met and had successful relationships that way, but it definitely requires a certain stamina and like mm-hmm. an expectation that you're gonna like, kiss a lot of frogs.

[00:44:53] Tali: There's a lot of crap to sift through, but I am a believer that, like, that was all very valuable experience. [00:45:00] Right. I have a really great like way to detect whether or not I have a good, good chemistry with somebody. Mm-hmm. or whether we're vibing. Mm-hmm. , like, it's not a mystery to me. Like I can tell very quickly when it comes to meeting people, like what the potential is there.

[00:45:17] Tali: Yeah. Or like 

[00:45:18] Cody: you said, you had established some standards for yourself too by Totally. By the time you and I 

[00:45:22] Tali: had met. Yes. I felt like I, at that point in time, I had met a lot of people who were kind of like lukewarm about me. Mm-hmm. and. . I felt like I was consistently in situations where I was like a hundred percent in and the other person was not.

[00:45:37] Tali: Yeah. And I 

[00:45:39] Cody: remember you asking me that on harmonica night. What? Well, you had asked me, 

[00:45:43] Tali: do you wanna tell people that harmonica night is, it's something we refer to a lot? Not yet on the podcast, but just in our life. Okay, 

[00:45:49] Cody: go ahead. 

[00:45:50] Tali: No, it was your, you set it up. 

[00:45:53] Cody: All right. Well, we had gone on an amazing date, like the week before.

[00:45:59] Cody: Took you to [00:46:00] Italian restaurant with live jazz. Mm-hmm. . And it's just hard to top that. It was like such a, Beautiful evening. So I I just wanted to have you all met to myself. I mean, some of it was selfish. Just instead of going out, we'd stay in. And so in the gym I had this kick ass sound system and I set up the speakers so that they would be balanced just right for where we would be dancing and started a Jack White song which we were both fans of.

[00:46:27] Cody: And and I learned a little harmonica rift to kind of go with the song. So as we're dancing, I kind of like pulled away from you for a second and pulled out the harmonica and started playing it with the song. And I thought it was gonna be kind of like romantic, but kind of cheesy too. And I felt a little silly.

[00:46:44] Cody: And then I looked up and you were sobbing . 

[00:46:47] Tali: I was, I lost it. It was so moving to me. It was like the grand gesture that I had always wanted. Yeah. I just felt so special. And the fact that you put [00:47:00] yourself out there like that to play me music mm-hmm. was so meaningful. I totally lost it. Yeah. Didn't I invite you home that night?

[00:47:09] Tali: Yeah, you did. That 

[00:47:09] Cody: was the first time I . That was the first time I went to your place, but yeah. Score . Yeah. But I guess my point was that you had asked me something and I had said like, I'm so, I'm so sure about you. Like, I'm really sure about you. Oh, honey, those words. I know. And then you confessed to me that's like, that was like the word you've been looking for.

[00:47:31] Cody: Like, somebody who's really sure about you and not just like I like you a lot. You know, like questioning 

[00:47:36] Tali: or just like likes a part of me. Yeah. You know, weightlifting. Was weird in a lot of ways because either guys were like super repulsed by it because I, you know, didn't have time for them, or I was really muscular or , you know, had to count all my calories.

[00:47:53] Tali: Like it was very difficult to live alongside sometimes, or it was like super fetishized and [00:48:00] guys were like, can you bench me or like , like I had somebody ask me once. to like pose for him. Like in the way that I ask you like to get in these like must like body building competition Yeah. Positions.

[00:48:17] Tali: Like a guy had asked me to do that and I felt really silly about it. Yeah. He also went to the bathroom in my studio apartment with the door open. So 

[00:48:26] Cody: the deal breaker right there. Yeah. 

[00:48:27] Tali: Oh gosh. . Yeah. There were a lot of things that just were not for me. , 

[00:48:31] Cody: Where were we? What were we talking about? ? 

[00:48:33] Tali: We were talking about changing our patterns Yeah.

[00:48:35] Tali: And how injury can be an opportunity to do so. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:41] Tali: Oh, something I was kind of curious about. We were talking about ice. And kind of preventing feelings of hurt and stuffing things down. And I just wrote something down that I don't really have any experience with, but I'm assuming is closely related, self-medicating. Mm. You know, obviously [00:49:00] that happens with pain.

[00:49:02] Tali: Mm-hmm. and people relieving chronic pain, physical pain, emotional pain, but emotional pain too. Absolutely. So I'm just kind of curious, like where does that fit, if you had to 

[00:49:12] Cody: guess? Yeah, I mean, I guess I'd like to go back to my definition of like active recovery. Because an active recovery is not avoidance.

[00:49:22] Cody: And I feel like self-medicating is often an avoidance where you're trying to like manage pain or anxiety and what that, you know, I've heard people say, well, I just like to have a drink at night to take the edge off. As if that's a good thing that, that, that, that they're basically admitting to self-medicating.

[00:49:42] Cody: Like, oh, I want to take the edge off. Of my anxiety or whatever it is. And in my 

[00:49:48] Tali: why, you know, I'll take a drink before I go out into like a social situation where I feel like I have to be on. 

[00:49:55] Cody: Yeah. Which is not, it's not consistent often, but it's not consistent. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say is it's [00:50:00] not a go-to.

[00:50:01] Cody: It's like once in a while it's like, well that would be nice. This might be more enjoyable if I Yeah. Had a drink and the social lubrication thing that, and that's one thing, but I, I'm talking about the consistent pattern of not wanting to ever feel uncomfortable and so do anything at any cost to avoid the discomfort and it becomes a crutch.

[00:50:22] Cody: Yeah. And that's, you know, I've dealt with a lot of alcoholism in my life through other relationships. Not myself personally, but that's how I've seen it start every time. It's like, well, I'm stressed. I, you know, I want, I just wanna have a glass of wine cuz I'm stressed. And then that leads to, I don't ever want to feel stressed.

[00:50:41] Cody: Therefore I always want wine. And then six years later you got a fucking problem. You know? And so, yeah, that's, and I think that it's really similar to the fitness analogy that we were talking about, about like not moving the shoulder because then you just cause a chronic problem. You took an acute injury that was probably able to be [00:51:00] healed and instead made it a chronic, lifelong injury Yeah.

[00:51:04] Cody: That you're gonna have to deal with forever. It's 

[00:51:06] Tali: almost like you, it, you're not like giving yourself the benefit of the doubt or like you don't have faith that your body has the ability to heal itself. Mm-hmm. in the same way that like, I don't have the ability to overcome my anxiety, so I'm gonna turn to something that's gonna like prop me up.

[00:51:23] Tali: Yeah. And the reason I think of it that way is like, you know, whenever I get like headaches, which I feel like is kind of common for me a lot of times you're like, don't you want some ibuprofen? A lot of times I'm like, no, I just wanna go to bed. Like, I know that sleep will. Cure it. Does that mean our whole evening is, you know, over with?

[00:51:44] Tali: Yes. Well, but I also don't like the idea of turning towards like, oh, I'll just take some thing for it. Yeah. It's 

[00:51:52] Cody: so funny because I agree with that, but I'm always so sensitive to your pain that I always just wanna fix it as fast as possible. Yeah. So I offer [00:52:00] you ibuprofen way more often than I will 

[00:52:01] Tali: take it myself.

[00:52:02] Tali: Right. Cuz you're super stubborn about it in the same way. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if it has the same sentiment that you do, but like thinking about it now and like of course every time we're in this like realm of our podcast, like it pushes me to think about things a little bit more deeply. And I wonder like, is that an act of like doing right by yourself or like letting your body do what it can?

[00:52:27] Tali: Mm-hmm. to alleviate pain? 

[00:52:28] Cody: Yeah. Like it's only pain, right? Like it's okay to just deal with it sometimes. Yeah. Well, You had brought up something, you, you touched on something that really reminded me of a conversation we were just having maybe yesterday. So t and I have put ourselves in a situation recently where we're experiencing a lot of discomfort and challenge and we've kind of done it on purpose, but it's, that doesn't diminish the intensity of how challenging it is.

[00:52:59] Cody: And we're [00:53:00] not quite ready to share details about what that is, but, during the process of it. You know, sometimes it's like, well, should we just like back off of this and just stop, pull the plug and Yeah. And, and every time that comes up, I, I have enough confidence. And you had mentioned that like, you don't faith Yeah.

[00:53:19] Cody: Faith that you can heal. And if you think an injury is just like, oh, I hurt, therefore it's gonna hurt forever, therefore I don't ever want to approach that and I just want to avoid it. And if that's the case, then you're causing a lot of long-term damage or missed opportunities or whatever it is. And I've been feeling that in our relationship is that I, I have so much confidence in our relationship and our ability to work through things.

[00:53:43] Cody: Mm-hmm. , because no, the most intense things we've ever been through so far, at any points since we met each other have all been. not only resolved, but resolved fairly quickly and with a lot of kindness and generosity and caring for each other. Mm-hmm. in such [00:54:00] a way that, like the most challenging things we've faced so far we've al we always come out the other side and we always feel more connected and closer.

[00:54:08] Cody: And it's like, it's almost like the build back better thing. Like we, it's our superpower honey. It really is. Like we come back better than before the problem and Yeah. And so that's why I have the strength to just, to keep asking for more. It's like, yeah, that hurts. Let's do it again. . And because I really think because that's growth, that's, yeah.

[00:54:30] Tali: That's how it 

[00:54:30] Cody: works. Yeah. But it's only because of our experience of the positive aspects of it in the past have trained me to, to have the belief that we can work through it and we can come out the other side in a better position. 

[00:54:43] Tali: Well, I feel like you've kind of brought up this idea of confidence.

[00:54:46] Tali: You know, we've been touching on it with. this belief in ourselves or this this strength, like you were saying. And I feel like a lot of issues with substance abuse can be related back to [00:55:00] like a lack of self-worth or a lack of self-confidence. Mm-hmm. . And I think about, there was a time, I think I might have mentioned this in another episode, but it might have been something that happened with my shoulder.

[00:55:11] Tali: Like it was a reoccurring thing and it was like, sometimes it would be worse. And then it almost like the way that this felt, it felt like my arm was hanging on by a thread. Mm-hmm. could barely do anything with it. It was like purely for show and just any movement felt like, you know, like when you're about to lose a tooth and there's just like one root hanging on

[00:55:30] Tali: So gross. So gross. I'm sorry I said it. But that's what it felt like. It just felt like it just effing hurt all the time. And I remember. . I was living in Portland. It was when I first moved back and I was living at Noam's house. And I just remember calling my mom on the phone crying and being like, what am I gonna do?

[00:55:48] Tali: Like, I moved to Portland so that I could compete on this team, and like, now I can't do anything. Like, what am I gonna do with my life? And she was like, T get [00:56:00] yourself together. Like, there's so much more to your life right now, . But at the time I couldn't see it. Yeah. I had put all of my eggs in this one basket.

[00:56:08] Tali: All of my self worth was tied to this sport, which, you know, that was still an issue I struggled with for many years to come after that. But you know, at that time I did not have the belief or the faith that like I could get to the other side. I definitely felt like defeated and overcome. Mm-hmm. by that experience of being injured.

[00:56:29] Tali: And you know, that's something that has. Been a worry of mine for a really long time of like, I don't wanna put myself in a position where I can never lift again. You know, there are freak accidents, there are people who enter their spines, like mm-hmm. shit does happen. But that's really, really rare. And so there's almost like you have to accept, like you were saying, obstacles, the way there's, when you're entering a sport or you're entering the dating arena, or you're entering whatever, you almost have to just remind [00:57:00] yourself like, this is gonna come out with a couple of bumps and bruises, but that's gonna be good for me.

[00:57:06] Tali: Yeah, 

[00:57:07] Cody: yeah. Yeah. That's kind of the analogy I was trying to, to get to. And, and with the self-knowledge aspect, you know, we talked about how injuries can lead to self-knowledge as far as like an assessment in fitness, in the fitness world, and I think in the. rest of your life, it can do the same thing. You know, you and I, again, like recently have experienced some things.

[00:57:30] Cody: It's like, well, I, I, now we know we don't want to do it that way. like, yeah, we'll do something and it doesn't feel good. Or it's like, it's kind of a, an injury, if you will. And, but it's a learning experience because now, now we know, it's like, oh, now we know we need to do this thing a different way. Or 

[00:57:47] Tali: now we know we have to warm up.

[00:57:48] Tali: Yeah. Now, 

[00:57:49] Cody: you know, you have to stretch. Yeah, exactly. Whatever. Or you know, like in your dating analogy, like kissing the frogs kind of thing. Another way of thinking about that is like learning what you don't want. [00:58:00] Like, I don't want somebody who treats me this way or has this habit or this way of thinking about things.

[00:58:07] Cody: You know, I value this. And, and so you're learning about yourself with each failure, if 

[00:58:12] Tali: you will. Well, and you're building structure. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's really easy to feel like you're just floating around. You know, we talk about having mentors, having coaches giving ourselves like, Things to push off of that are going to, you know, propel us in the right direction, but like keep us from super tragedy, falling free falling sorts of stuff.

[00:58:35] Tali: Yeah. You know, I think that is really important to manage, but I think you can only do it if you're paying attention and if you're willing to learn from those experiences. Because, you know, resilience was taught to me in the analogy of like waves knocking you down. Mm-hmm. standing in the ocean, but you develop the ability to stand up faster each time.

[00:58:58] Tali: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so [00:59:00] then those challenges aren't challenges anymore. Mm-hmm. , you know, the stronger you become, but Right. You have to like, take that opportunity. It doesn't. Happen because there are gonna be waves that hit you and they keep you down or you get used to it. You know, when it comes to this, you know, new venture that you and I have that has been really challenging for both of us.

[00:59:23] Tali: I had brought up like, what if we just get used to this feeling? What if this makes us callous? What if this hurt becomes a part of us? Mm-hmm. , it's important that we always push or not push through, but like work to get to the other side, right? Yeah. 

[00:59:40] Cody: Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the confidence issue there, or the confidence came in that I was describing is that we've always, we've always done that.

[00:59:48] Cody: We never leave shit on the table. Like we never, we never walk away from things like, well, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree and then stay pissed and then let it fade and we'll move on and yeah, there's no such thing [01:00:00] that has never happened to us, like we're gonna like. We're gonna keep, we're gonna keep working at this until we both feel 

[01:00:06] Tali: great about this and like fit it in every nook and cranny.

[01:00:08] Tali: Yeah. Like you and I make it our job. 

[01:00:10] Cody: Yeah, absolutely. Jesus Fly by, fly by bug . 

[01:00:16] Tali: I come. Kind of surprised that they're still hanging around. 

[01:00:19] Cody: Yeah. Pine Beatles. They're slowing down though. The pine beetles are still here, folks. Yeah. Maybe by the time this airs they'll be gone. 

[01:00:26] Tali: But anyway, I think it's really important to just touch again or reiterate that injury doesn't have to be looked at a bad thing.

[01:00:33] Tali: Mm-hmm. being hurt doesn't have to be looked at a bad thing. Doesn't mean it doesn't fucking suck. Yeah. Like there have been moments this week where like, I felt hurt or even hurt by you. Not just because of the situation, but like the way I was interpreting things coming from you. That's how I was receiving it.

[01:00:49] Tali: But you and I have been able to come to really new solid understandings of ourselves. [01:01:00] Mm-hmm. and of each other. and we're using those to move forward. Yeah. You know, we have to take the information that we get and move forward with it. You can't leave it on the table like you were saying. Yeah. And that's the same for injury.

[01:01:14] Tali: Yeah. And it's 

[01:01:14] Cody: not in a lazy way either. Like we have made very clear, almost like notes of like, these are the three things we need to do next time differently. Like, you know, well, it's 

[01:01:23] Tali: a practice like anything else. Yeah, absolutely. There are very clear objectives and you know, it's a new frontier. And I think that I think this podcast is doing exactly what I hoped it would is that there are these incredible lessons that we learn from our fitness life that can really help give us some sort of guidance in the real world where there's often the belief that there isn't a rule book or there isn't.

[01:01:50] Tali: Mm-hmm. a right way of doing things. And I still think that's all true, but we're not. Floating around by accident. Mm-hmm. , there are all sorts of signals. There [01:02:00] are all sorts of carryovers and threads and things that we can look to and use to our advantage to have better lives. Yeah. Deeper lives. Yep. 

[01:02:09] Cody: I think it's great to use fitness as a Petri dish in an experiment for the greater things in life, because it's just a more visceral, visual, physical, obvious example of what we're actually teasing out as universal principles.

[01:02:29] Cody: Mm-hmm. . So you could learn these, you know, we could learn these principles from anywhere, from any hobby, from any skill or whatever, but the gym is just so like physical and in your face about it that, well, we've clocked 

[01:02:40] Tali: in a lot of hours and we have, so we might as 

[01:02:42] Cody: well put it to use. So it's just a, a fun tool to be able to tease out these principles that really could come from just about any domain.

[01:02:49] Cody: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. . Is there anything 

[01:02:52] Tali: left 

[01:02:52] Cody: unsaid? Man, I don't know. I think so. I think I could just keep going on on these same topics, but I think we've covered the basics. You know, [01:03:00] we didn't really go through my list again as far as how to bring those fitness issues into other analogies. But 

[01:03:07] Tali: is there one that I think we've covered it.

[01:03:08] Tali: I think we're good. Great. I mean, I think it was a beautiful place to end. 

[01:03:11] Cody: I love you. 

[01:03:12] Tali: I love you too, honey. I love this project so 

[01:03:14] Cody: much. Yep. We love this podcast. We hope you do too. Both of you who listen to this , 

[01:03:21] Tali: all two of you who are probably my family members,

[01:03:26] Cody: But we're sure having a good time doing it. Yeah, we are. It's one of the, one of the highlights that we look forward to each week. So hope to see you next week on The Philosophy of Fitness.

[01:03:40] Tali: This episode was produced by Tali Zari and Cody Limbaugh. Check out our writing, coaching services and home studying adventures at live all your life.com. For show notes, resources mentioned, or to submit a question or contribution, click on the podcast tab.[01:04:00]