032 Those Who Cannot Do, Teach!: The Philosophy Of Fitness Ep.22

Teaching is a separate skill set from the subject that is being taught. Seeking the best mentor can sometimes be tricky because that person may or may not be a shining example of where you want to go. This week we discuss some of these nuances and some valuable tips about some counterintuitive ways to learn. 

00:00 Intro

00:44 A Jewish Christmas?

05:48 The difference between being an athlete and being a coach, is it true that "Those Who Cannot Do, Teach"?

06:47 Teaching as a form of learning

07:52 Bob Bowman's entire athletic career was comprised of 3 years of swimming in college, and one year as team captain, but he was a coach for 30 years and one of his students went on to set an all-time record for most Olympic gold medals. Michael Phelps won 23 gold medals under the instruction of Bob Bowman.

09:44 The flip side: Someone who's living a destructive lifestyle but giving you advice

15:01 A good litmus test for identifying a good mentor is to look at the results they get for their students. Ref. Episode 022 How To Utilize A Good Coach or Mentor: The Philosophy Of Fitness

24:11 Ed Mylett: “You are Most Qualified to Help the Person You Used to Be.” Cody's story of becoming a Personal Trainer at the peak of his unhealthy phase- losing 70 lbs as he was earning his first certification

28:28 Just because someone is an expert, doesn't mean they have the skills to effectively teach

31:16 Some pics from the nostalgia we're talking about: Cody Judging At CF Regionals, Tali took this photo, but it was years before we met! Tali meeting Greg Glassman with Coach Jean Ann47, founder of CrossFit. Cody meeting Glassman in 2009.

37:37 If you want to learn something on another level, teach it to someone else. This makes you integrate it in new ways as you have to be able to internalize it enough to teach it, it stretches you to outpace your students, it brings you back to curiosity with a "beginners mind" even if it's a familiar topic, and it brings added attention to signal to your brain that this is important

39:56 I highly recommend

Couples - Proven Fitness & Intimacy Practices To Achieve Your Health and Relationship Goals Together!
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Transcript

Cody: 0:56

Hi, this is Cody Limbaugh.

Tali: 0:58

And I'm Tali Zabari, and you're listening to the Philosophy of Fitness podcast on the

Cody: 1:03

Lym Network.

Tali: 1:25

Hey honey. What's up, baby? I'm doing so well today. Today is one of my favorite days of the entire year. which

Cody: 1:33

is Christmas Tree Day. Christmas Tree Day. And can you wanna give a little background to folks who may not know

Tali: 1:40

your background? My background as being a Jew who has always wanted to celebrate Christmas. Yeah. And had vowed to marry a boy, which is a non-Jewish man, so that I could have Christmas in my life. Is that why you fell in love with me? It's not why It's just an added bonus. Okay. Yeah, as a young child, you know, I went to Jewish school so I only knew Jewish kids. And I always had this incredible fascination, fascination with Christmas. I think it had to do with TV and going to see the Nutcracker. And then I went to public school and I felt very left out. And so every year I'd ask my parents for a Christmas tree. And one year my mom actually got me one. It was one of those desktop Christmas trees, and I got an ornament every day of Hanukkah for it. And it was so much fun. And so once you and I got together we had chopped down a Christmas tree here on the ranch. Mm-hmm. and then. Smuggled it home in a body bag in the back of our car. Yeah. So

Cody: 2:40

we for those of you who have not gotten your own Christmas trees before, when they're green and you first cut'em down, the branches are pretty flexible as long as they're going up toward the top of the tree. So we just shoved that whole tree into the back of our car are like our Volkswagen Jetta. Mm-hmm. and so yeah, it took up the whole backseat all the way from eastern Oregon to Portland, about a

Tali: 3:01

five hour drive. Yes. And it was in our shoebox apartment. Amazingly it fit. Mm-hmm. Because what we've come to find is that every year when we chopped down tree, that it is much bigger in the house than it appears to be outside, which is gonna be the case again this year. Yeah, we usually do it on the day after Thanksgiving, but this year I worked and so we pushed it to this weekend and we have some friends coming over and so I was really determined to get our tree today. So it is awaiting the defrosting of the vessel that we put it in each year. Mm-hmm. We use a wash tub. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I left my phone on. Okay, there we go. We usually put it in a wash tub with a bunch of bricks. And yeah, it's sitting frozen in our living room as we speak.

Cody: 3:54

Old metal wash tub. Yeah. Like old school.

Tali: 3:56

Yes. And that was used in this very home or not this very home? It was on this very property. Yeah. That your dad's generation would take like real baths in, in front of the fire. Yeah. Which amazing.

Cody: 4:09

Which, it's kind of funny to call it a bath cuz it's a tiny little. Wash tub that you would either kneel in as a little kid or you'd stand in it when you got bigger. And basically pour water over yourself in standing in front of the fireplace.

Tali: 4:24

It's like

Cody: 4:24

puddle bathing. Yeah, Yeah. And the kids that have to take turns. So the last person to go would have to, you know, this is all like used one. And Was it

Tali: 4:33

your dad the last, or was he the first? I know he was one of one of those. Yeah. I forget. I know. Anyway, so today was Christmas Tree Day. drove out to this grove where there are a bunch of young trees and we put on the Nutcracker music and packed hot chocolate with cinnamon, which is really good. Yeah. And we used a bow saw to take it down and we did it together. You did all the liming. But I've thought about it many times that, you know, in the future if we don't have access to fuel for our chainsaws, then we're gonna have to go old school style and do it together. What are those called? Or different kind of saw poles saw.

Cody: 5:14

Yeah. There's lots of different kinds. Mm-hmm. But yeah, this one was a bows saw that's about what, three and a half feet long maybe? Yeah. Significant for such a little tree. So you and I took a, an end and pulled back and forth. Yeah, it was so fun. It looked good for the

Tali: 5:31

camera. Anyway, it was only like three reps each, so it was minimal work, but. Looked super cute and yeah, we brought her back home. Might have to trimm her down a little bit. Go through the door. Yeah, this is a big tree. We will link to a photo or put a photo in the show notes or something cuz it's a

Cody: 5:49

hilarious picture. We took just the top of a tree and thinking that it was just the top, it would fit. And then when we got it, well first of all, it's like sticking out the back of our Jetta about mm-hmm. six feet. Mm-hmm. probably. That should have been our first clue. And then it's

Tali: 6:03

still really hard to tell, like, the frame of reference, like being out here, it's kind of like when you're watching weightlifting, like you can't tell how tiny the people are because there's nothing on the platform for reference. Yeah. You know? Yeah. We

Cody: 6:15

live in an expansive forest and so you get it home and it is not even gonna fit through the door. No. Like, not even close. No. It's Griswold family Christmas for those of you who know, you know. So today's show, what are we talking about? We are talking about the difference between. coaching and performing as an athlete, and of course how that may carry over to other areas of life. Often it's said those who cannot do teach mm-hmm. which is kind of an annoying saying because it kind of makes it sound like teachers are inept in a way. Like if you're a teacher, it just means cuz you washed out, cuz you couldn't do something. On the other hand there's some truth to the fact that sometimes the best athletes do not make great coaches and sometimes great coaches were never really amazing athletes either. So they are two different skill sets, but they are

Tali: 7:09

not totally separate. I think that the, those who can't do. Can have almost a follow up statement of then become experts and can do, I don't know, I have to think of better wording, but to a point I would say that's very true to my experience. Mm-hmm. you know, I considered my weightlifting quote unquote career, like competitively as my field work as a coach. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I really gravitated towards weightlifting and I was always the coach who was called upon to teach on the days that there were mm-hmm. there was weightlifting programming in CrossFit. And so I decided that I wanted to lean really heavily into it. And then that became a totally different story of its own. And, you know, I was able to take it pretty far in terms of my level of competition. Yeah. So it's totally possible. I like to think of teaching as a method of learning. Mm-hmm. to kind of

8:07

preface

Cody: 8:07

this, I do too. You and I share that in common, and you're the only other person I've ever met who's really embraced that to the degree that I do, which is if I want to develop a skill or learn something new, one of my favorite ways to do that is to turn around and teach it to others. Mm-hmm. it helps me grow as a person in my knowledge and it motivates me to learn. So yeah. But I did want to talk about some of the contrasts and comparisons. Like if we take it to the outside world, there's two different skill sets in teaching or mentoring or whatever, and performing in this case as an athlete. But you can also, like, a good example is Michael Phelps's, coach, I've used this example for years. You have, because like Mi Michael Phelps won 23 gold medals. Geez. Set all kinds of records, right. and if you're making the claim that your coach should be as good of an athlete as you, this is a very good example. So his coach is Bob Bowman and I looked up some stats here just to kind of prove my point cuz I was kind of talking out my ass. I just, I knew a little bit about the guy but I back it up with some statistics. So I looked it up today. And so Michael Phelps won 23 Gold medals. Bob Bowman spent 26 years as a coach, but only three as an athlete. Wow. He swam in college for three years and on his last year he was team captain of his college team. That's it. That's his whole athletic career and the rest of the time has been coaching. Wow. And he's coached one of the greatest swimmers of all time. So it just kind of backs up the point that. you can be a great coach. Never really having been a quote unquote great athlete. And it's not to downplay any of his accomplishments. It's just three years of collegiate Swimming is not uncommon. That's not a, an outlier situation. Like there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who can say that they swam in college for three years on a team and maybe even were team captain one year. But not all those athletes have coached the highest performing teams and one of the greatest Olympic athletes of all time.

Tali: 10:25

I have a question for you because this is another thing that you allude to all the time. Doctors. Yes. You have often had a lot of criticism for doctors who appear unhealthy. You know, we've seen the meme of all of the folks who sit on like the highest board of federal health organizations, blah, blah, blah, and they are very overweight. Yeah. Well definitely don't take very good care of themselves, you know, at first

Cody: 10:53

glance. Yeah. Well, government officials are a whole category of their own. I know so I know that

Tali: 11:00

I know I'm baiting you in a a lot of ways, but try to focus on like this very

Cody: 11:03

specific example, but I think the cliche is a little bit more like what you might have seen in the eighties and earlier. And I think in the nineties this started to shift and now it's very rare. But there was a time when it was not uncommon for your doctor to be like an overweight cigarette

Tali: 11:22

smoker. Right. We saw that in Mad Men, remember? He's like essentially blowing smoke up her, you know? Yeah.

Cody: 11:28

and, and so these are supposed to be medical physicians and I think it may have been excusable a little bit in like maybe the forties or fifties because first of all, obesity was a very rare back then compared to now. And second prob probably the dangers of cigarette smoking were not. Well known, like there was litur legit a time when that wasn't very well known. But by the time you're in the 1980s, if you're a physician and you're smoking like chain smoker and you're overweight and you're not taking care of yourself and you're like a cardiologist or something, that, that's a problem for me. That's, that's a level of hypocrisy. That's, that goes beyond the contrast of athlete and coach. That is like do as I say, not as I do.

Tali: 12:16

Yeah. But if you think about the complexes that you and I have experienced as people who did not start out really athletic and became athletic coaches un have had a lot of imposter syndrome. Yeah. And especially now, like getting things started again with our coaching and being, you know, not in our best shape anymore. I, I wonder about that in terms of the physicians and things that we see who might not be the picture of health, but they sure as hell know a lot more than I do. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's something to consider, I think. Yeah. You know, just because, you know, you can be an expert without being a model athlete. We see it all the time. Yeah. I mean, it would be great for coaches to be able to like fully demonstrate and embody what they're saying. I think you do have a lot more credibility, that's for sure. But it isn't necessary. We've seen coaches who are like, you know, not super physically fit anymore. A lot of people coach into old age. You absolutely can. I remember you were saying at CrossFit level two seminar that you did, or a certification that you did that you had to show that you could coach without. you know, you could do verbal cues mm-hmm. you could do it without speaking. You could do it without movement. Yeah. And those are all really important skills to possess as a coach. And you could rely on one very heavily if you don't have the physical chops to back it up, whether it was ever at all. Yeah. Or not

Cody: 13:48

anymore. Well, a good example of that in my personal coaching career is that I coached probably, I dunno, I would say somewhere between five to seven people. I coached them to their first muscle up before I could do my own same. And I I knew the mechanics well enough. I knew from watching other coaches how to coach it, but how to cue it, how to spot it, all those kind of things. But I also just knew the mechanics of what needed to happen and was able to articulate that to people who were strong enough to follow through on my instructions. Sure. Even though I was not, and so I couldn't demo

Tali: 14:25

it. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah. But that's also because you and I have watched so many reps. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. Like we had talked about how we can easily see when someone is moving optimally for their own body and when they're not, even if we don't know them. I, I feel like it's that same kind of skill that you and I are able to absorb all those reps that we see and really be able to explain those movements even if we can't do them ourselves. I'm trying to think if there's another movement like that. Because I have helped people to their first muscle up as well. Mm-hmm. and. I don't have very much muscle up experience at all. So yeah, I think that's really fascinating. Yeah. That we have the ability to do that.

Cody: 15:11

Well, even on a more minor degree, like with weightlifting, I've coached people who were way stronger than I was to be able to dial in their movement, to improve their weightlifting, even though they're uplifting me to begin with, you know? So that's kind of another example. It's like your coach doesn't have to be the best athlete. And that's why I always brought up Michael Phelps's coach. It's like if he was as good as Michael Phelps, he'd be in the fucking pool. Like he would be Yeah. He'd be your opponent. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's kind of a ridiculous notion. And the, what I wanted to point out this like helpful in this concept as far as, you know, we already did an episode on finding a good coach and the difference between coaching and mentoring, and we kinda went down the rabbit hole there and that was a fun episode. But one thing that I think is. useful as far as being a distinction between, you know, a coach who may not embody fitness, for instance, but does that coach have a track record of a lot of great results for his clients or her clients? Mm-hmm. like that, that is what you wanna look for. So even, for instance, a business mentor, if you're looking at a business mentor who, you know, obviously you don't want somebody who knows nothing and is broke you don't, you don't want some broke business mentor, but at the same time, maybe you want to go further than your business mentor is in their personal life and then their business

Tali: 16:35

life. Well, we've talked about outgrowing your coaches Yes. And when to identify that. But this, or how

Cody: 16:40

to, but my point is, is that the way you find a great coach is not to look at the coach's results. You look at the coach's students results mm-hmm. I see. If that coach has mentored. You know, 30 other people to become multimillionaire business owners, then obviously their coaching seems to be effective, even if that's not where they are, which is probably unlikely, but I'm

Tali: 17:03

just Right. In that particular scenario, they're probably making good

Cody: 17:06

money. Yeah, I'm just saying. So whether that's a physician or a business mentor or a coach for fitness, athletics relationships, you know, that kind of thing. Like you might, for instance, have a relationship coach who's single, maybe that person is not in a relationship at the moment, but if they have a track record of a lot of couples that they've helped in very positive ways, then that's a better clue.

Tali: 17:31

There used to be a reality show called, I think it was called like the Millionaire Matchmaker and it was this Jewish, modern day yk kind of lady who would meet or put together millionaires with. you know, and put'em on dates and things like that. And she would play matchmaker and she would get a lot of criticism for being single. Which I think does fit into this particular situation just right. But I think that's also really nice to hear. As a coach, I always feel like I need to fight to stay on top or to stay ahead because that's gonna give me the recognition that I need. Mm-hmm. to be considered a good coach. But that's kind of my own complex. I don't think anybody else is demanding that of me. But I have had situations, like for instance, when I worked for Beaverton CrossFit, which was a short time, a very mysterious ending to that job, that haunted me for years. I always had a complex that like I wasn't fit enough to be one of their coaches. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. I think that was easy for me to believe at the time. But

Cody: 18:43

because you were kind of on the top of your weightlifting

Tali: 18:45

career. I was on the top of my game at the time. Yeah. So it was extra confusing to me. But it just goes to show that like that imposter syndrome like runs so deep, even if I am at the top of my game. Yeah. You know, like that the way that I saw myself as less than, or still the person that I was before I put in all this work. Yeah. Was still kind of showing its head.

Cody: 19:07

Yeah. I think I'm either at an experience level or an age now where I can recognize that of myself. Like I don't need to be the fittest person in the room. I don't need to be embarrassed by being a coach who's not the fittest person in the room. But I am also walking the walk when I'm telling people to prioritize their nutrition, their exercise, their relationships. I can feel confident about giving that advice, cuz I'm doing that. Oh yeah.

Tali: 19:34

Even if we're not doing it like a hundred percent, you and I are talking about that shit like on the daily, all day. Yeah. All the time. Every meal. Like some like that conversation comes up.

Cody: 19:43

Yeah. Yeah. We're weighing and measuring food, or at least we're being very aware of it on the days that we might not measure everything perfectly. At least we're, we're not just mindlessly throwing stuff down our throat and,

Tali: 19:56

and even the things that maybe we shouldn't eat, we always split. Yeah. Which I love so much. That's one of my favorite things that you and I do. Yeah. Because I get to have what I want and we get to share the experience mm-hmm. And share the calories. So Thanks. Yeah.

Cody: 20:08

It's been great for me too. So yeah, I, I think that walking the walk doesn't necessarily mean you have to be the best or better than your athletes or, or students of any kind. But I think walking the walk is important. So I was afraid this might be a really, really short episode because I didn't have a lot of notes. I've kind of covered'em all in, you already covered everything, but I'm, but I'm certainly willing to explore any thoughts that you have on this subject.

Tali: 20:34

Well, there's a story that always comes to mind when you and I have had this conversation, and that is when I took my CrossFit level one cert the first time. So this was back in like 2011 and it was kind of a crazy time in CrossFit. It was kind of like where the big wigs were still really accessible. Hmm. So Todd Woodman was the Flowmaster Nadia Shaila was the gym owner, and we had this group of, I'm gonna say quote unquote coaches who were also like games athletes at the time who were. a part of the team and like coaching us that weekend. And I'm kind of trying to figure out whether or not I wanna disclose who this person was, but let's just say, let's just say there was a games athlete who we had to break up into different stations and kind of rotate through different specialty movements on how to coach them. And this athlete was supposed to be coaching or teaching us how to coach muscle ups, which is kind of funny that that came up. I just remember, you know, he's hanging from the rings and he says something like, stupid simplistic, like, and you just pulled your chest and then you're up and that's it. and I mean, all of us had to have been thinking like, Okay. That's not helpful. not helpful at all. And you know, this guy is a beast. He's stupid strong, can do them with his eyes closed. Strict kip whatever. But that is not an effective way to teach anyone anything. You know, that kind of reminds me of like math class, you know, there are these like super brainiacs who are able to speak this language in numbers, trying to translate it to a bunch of people who don't understand. Yeah. And just doing it over and over again doesn't teach

Cody: 22:30

you shit. It's funny that you would bring that up because my college math professor, I just remember sitting in class and I, I think I was following along pretty well, cuz I like math. Weird weirdo. I know. But but it was, I was being stretched for sure. Mm-hmm. but, people in next to me would be looking at me and just going like, what the fuck is he talking about? Yes. And, and the professor was like this old curmudgeony dude who literally would turn his back to everybody. Mm-hmm. right on the chalkboard for 20 minutes straight and never even turn around. And he'd be talking and writing and half the people are looking around like, should I even be in this room Cause this is not good. That's a gotta be a common experience. And then he, he seemed so like generous. He'd turn around and he would ask like, does anybody have any questions? And then somebody raised their hands and they'd ask a question and his way of answering it would be like to turn around and start writing on the board again. And it was just like that, that you're not helping. I know.

Tali: 23:29

I really wish math was taught in a different way, because that was my experience too, when I think about college as well, where I had a very similar experience. I had a female professor and she would also have her back towards us as she was just jotting things down on the board and. I was almost too afraid to look around. I didn't wanna be the only one who was like totally fucking lost. But the problem with that situation is like, that teacher is on a runaway train, not even like checking in with the group. And then when they do, like, you're so far behind, that's like, where do I even begin to ask questions? And that's how this situation felt at the CrossFit certification where teaching people to teach is very different. Mm-hmm. teaching people how to move is very different. Yep. Moving alone is different. Like those are three different things. Yeah. Teaching someone how to coach and learning those skills. I, I don't know how ma, how much of that has been explicitly taught to me or how much has just been watching other coaches mm-hmm. and absorbed

Cody: 24:37

through your Yeah. Experience. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. You know, that really brings up a good point and I'm gonna butcher this quote, so do it. I will put the real quote in the. Episode description. So just scroll down and read the description and you'll, you'll find it. But the quote was something of to the effect of that your challenges are what make you uniquely qualified to teach other people who are also going through the same, same challenges.

Tali: 25:02

I love that so much. It's hard to choose just one, isn't it? Yeah. Well,

Cody: 25:06

and I think that really speaks to me as a lot of my qualities, I feel like as a coach, are helping people really overcome challenges, because I've had a lot of challenges not being an athlete. I was not athletic in school. I w I got married when I was really young, put on a bunch of weight at my heaviest, I think I was around 2 38, like I was around. I was close to two 40. At, at my heaviest, and I know some strong people out there who were two 40. I was not, I was just really outta shape. Two 40. Wow. Sickly, you know, just not, it wasn't good and, and still so handsome. Thanks When I began to study for my first personal trainer certificate, that's when I, I was at my heaviest and I lost that weight. So it took me about six months to study for my first trainer cert because I think it could have been a lot faster. But I was also working like three jobs, So I would like work a double shift and then I would like stay up at like one in the morning and just study for one hour. And that's what I got. And so it took about six months, but I was also. do what I was learning as I was learning it. And so by the time I got my certificate, I was 175 pounds. Wow. So I lost, I forget what the math is right now, but it was like close to 70 pounds. Right. That I had lost in like six months or damn nine months or something like that. What? Now I will say that it wasn't the healthiest because I was learning at a certification that I don't agree with all their methods anymore. Mm-hmm. And it was a, during a time, cuz this was back in the early nineties, 93, 94. Hmm. And back then everyone was still on this like low fat kick. Hmm. Sad. So sad, sad. So I was really, it's

Tali: 26:56

a flavorless

Cody: 26:56

food Well and I was really calorically deficit in order to lose that way. Got it. So it was like a big caloric deficit with carbs, which meant. I was low energy and had headaches a lot. Mm.

Tali: 27:09

That's an unfortunate trade off.

Cody: 27:11

Yeah. Yeah. Because now knowing that, you know, I could have been a little bit more like keto, like a little higher calories doing resistance training, feeding my brain what it needs with healthy fats, you know, that I could have been a different experience. But I guess my point is, is that I didn't start out as an athlete. So when people come to me and they're like, I can't do this, it's more than a mechanical issue for me. It's like, I know what that feels like, I've mm-hmm. fucking know what that feels like to not literally not feel like you can do what the coach is asking of you. So it's easy for me to modify for that person, help them through an injury, help them overcome nausea, you know, because I used to be the kid who puked every day in pe mm-hmm. And the teacher literally told me eventually my last two years of school, that I didn't have to do PE cuz he was just tired of me puking in the locker room every day. Oh. And so, I like, I know what it is to be that kid or that guy. And so I think that's one of my strengths as a coach.

Tali: 28:09

Totally. And it seemed to play out with this games athlete that he was kind of in a figurative ivory tower. Yeah. You know, where he could not relate to not knowing how to do it. You remember you and I did pistols the other day mm-hmm. and you were saying, oh, those look so good. And I'm like, well, I've never had to work at these. A pistol is a one-legged squat which I would imagine is considered a more advanced movement. Yeah, it is in CrossFit. It just can be very demanding on your unilateral strength and your balance and all sorts of stuff. But that's just something I was, I've been able to do from day one. I just gave it a try and I could do it. And so this, that's how this game's athlete was approaching. the muscle up was just, yeah. I already know how to do it. So how would you know how to teach it if you've never had to learn it? Yeah, yeah.

Cody: 29:07

Yeah. So I, I think that's just another vote for the idea that when they say those who cannot do teach, it's not necessarily statement of ineptitude.

Tali: 29:21

No. And it's not a permanent

Cody: 29:22

state, and it's not a permanent state. Right. It's it's a jumping off point. It might actually make the teacher more valuable if they can relate to students who are struggling. Yeah, yeah.

Tali: 29:32

Yeah. Because they're probably having to experience other routes, other methodologies that for folks who can take on those skills naturally mm-hmm. never have to worry about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it'd be great for there to be a math course from somebody who is, who struggled Yes. Who's like very more like artistically inclined or visually inclined, like, that would be so great to learn from somebody like that. Yeah. But you tend to learn from experts. Mm-hmm. which is amazing. But do those experts know how to translate that? How to teach to other people? Yeah. Who are not. Yeah. Yes. That's why teaching is such an incredible skill. Mm-hmm. And when it's done right, it's just super magical. And I remember being very inspired by my CrossFit coaches and I was just about to enter my twenties and I was thinking like, that's who I'd wanna be in my twenties. Like, they look like they have a really fun life, their bodies look great, and they in this amazing community. And I just definitely wanted a part of that. And I was super self-conscious that, ooh, maybe it's too early for me to get my CrossFit certification. But I had written myself a note here that, you know, I spent close to$25,000 for. My last two years of school mm-hmm. and I paid a thousand dollars for my CrossFit certification. Mm-hmm. And guess which one has served me most or had the most return on my investment? Oh yeah. Million times over that. Oh yeah. CrossFit

Cody: 31:04

certification. I mean, that, that thousand dollars certification provided a career for you that ended up paying off a lot of your student debt. Yeah. For,

Tali: 31:12

for college. And that money that I paid my CrossFit certification on that was like money that I got from my family. We all get this like$5,000 stipend from a relative who had passed. Mm-hmm. And I spent a thou, it was supposed to be like my living expenses. For like the year or something and I ended up using a thousand dollars of it without asking on my CrossFit certification. I remember being in my dorm room at school when I bought, when I paid for it and I was like, fuck, my mom might kill me. But I mean, that has been what has been, that's what's been feeding me for the last 10, 12 years. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.

Cody: 31:54

Yeah, I remember I had to fight tooth and cloth for my first crosser too, cuz a thousand was a lot for me at the time. Yeah. And then to become an affiliate was another thousand.

Tali: 32:08

Wow. It is so much more now. Maybe two. I can't remember. It was like$2,500 10 years ago.

Cody: 32:14

Yeah, it goes, it goes up and up and up and up and people were grandfathered in. So I was a little earlier. The, the sick part was, is that I wanted to become an affiliate when it was 500 a year. Dang. But I wasn't certified yet. Aw. And so it was like$1,500 that I had to come up with a thousand for the cert and 500 for the thing. And it just seemed like so much money at the time. It was funny to look back on because it's like, it doesn't seem like that big a deal now, but back you

Tali: 32:37

have a lot less financial pressure on you now, though you are not raising children anymore. Yeah, I was trying

Cody: 32:43

to. Yeah, I mean, we had three kids at home and a, that's a lot of kids stay at home mom and me trying to like, make the gym profitable enough to take care of my family of five. So yeah, scary was a lot of pressure. But the reason I bring it up is the story is great because I got my certification and then it's like, well, we'll get the affiliate, we'll get the affiliate when it happens. Like, we'll just keep trying to save money. And the cost kept going up every year and So it was like getting harder and harder. And we went to a gym party at a local bar and a bunch of my members were there and I think it was my birthday, and they like cut a cake and everything. And then they handed me an envelope and it was a cashier's check for enough for the affiliation that my members paid for our CrossFit affiliation for the first year. Oh

Tali: 33:33

gosh. Yeah. That gives me chills.

Cody: 33:35

Babe. You know what I, I think that was for my cert. That was for my cert. Yeah, they paid for my cert and then Greg Glassman comped my first year cuz I met him in person and he is like And you told him the story? Yeah. And I told him, I, he's like, why aren't you? Well I was asking questions and he is like, he got, he like singled me out. He's like, oh, this is like in front of a bunch of people. Yeah. And he's like, oh fuck. He's like, oh, I'm not gonna say what he said. Cause it just sounds like bragging, but No, say what he said. I'm curious I don't wanna say it. Do it. Okay. So I was asking questions about his lecture and he just stopped and was just like, this is a sign of a great coach right here. What did you ask? Because of the questions he's asking. It was something to do with the fact he was actually talking about like similar to what we were talking about right now, which is like, how do you judge a good coach? It's not by how well it looks like they're coaching. It's how many. what percentage of people in their gym can do a muscle up? Like what, what are the results, stats that they're getting? Yeah. And I had asked him something about demographics. You know, like I I'm in a, I'm in Lake Oswego, like it's an older, wealthy community. Probably not a lot of like 65 year old women who are gonna be coming in, are gonna be learning to do a muscle up. And so I, I don't remember what my question was, but it was something to do with the fact of, of like relative results that are appropriate for the community that you're serving and that a muscle up isn't like the grand, you know, measure of fitness or whatever. And it was more complex than that because it's just a foggy memory, but it was something along those lines. And anyway, after the conference I was talking to him and he is like, so, how long have you been an affiliate? And I'm like, well, I'm not yet. And he's like, why are you not an affiliate? And I was like, well, and he goes, is it the money? And I'm like, yeah, basically. And he is like, brings his assistant over and he is like, just sign these people up. Like what's the affiliate name? And I was like, cross it excellence. And he is like, yeah, I like that a lot. And so, oh my gosh. So he comped my first year of yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So I got my cert and my I got my cert paid for by my members. And then my affiliate by Greg

Tali: 35:53

Glassman himself. That's amazing. Yeah. That ne would never happen nowadays. I mean I think that's so, gosh, that's so novel, babe. Yeah, well

Cody: 36:01

it was early grassroots era, you

Tali: 36:03

know? Yeah. I'm gonna try to find a photo. I'm just gonna like scroll through Instagram cause I got rid of my Facebook. But I have a picture of when I first met him Yeah. And I was really excited about it. Yeah. It was at the games. Gosh, that was such a fun year. I forget. It was like the second or third year, I think it was the second year that Annie Thor's daughter won. Mm-hmm. And I was like losing my shit. She was like my superhero at the time. Yeah. And I remember meeting Glassman and Bergner and Sakamoto and all the big wigs. It was so cool. Yeah.

Cody: 36:36

All those years I was a CrossFit affiliate. I never went to the games.

Tali: 36:40

I'm so sorry to

Cody: 36:41

hear that. I wasn't, they were fucking fun. I was a judge at the regional competitions. Oh, I know

Tali: 36:48

a few

Cody: 36:48

times. Saw you I was a judge at the very first regional competitions ever.

Tali: 36:53

When it was like at a fairground. Right? It was in Seattle. Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing photos from that. And it looks like when we go to the rodeo here Yeah. It is Jamie, which is some like planks of wood

Cody: 37:04

yeah. To lift on. Yeah. They had planks of wood, like, like just like our gym plywood thrown down on the concrete. And then they had Scaffolding, like construction scaffolding for what? Pull-ups and everything. Oh, fuck yeah. Everything was just on construction scaffolding because that there was no money and there was no sponsorships and there was, there were no professional athletes. Like this was way back when. It was just a grassroots, fun thing. All volunteer.

Tali: 37:28

Gosh, I hope he's so proud of himself. Greg Glassman.

Cody: 37:32

Yeah, he's

Tali: 37:32

an interesting guy. He's a really interesting guy, but like what he created was amazing. It's a phenomenon. Yeah. And there's definitely, I feel very lucky to have been a part of those early days. Yeah,

Cody: 37:43

me too. Yeah, those early grassroots days were really cool. So fun. Like really, really cool. Yeah.

Tali: 37:50

I'm gonna keep scrolling as we're talking. Okay.

Cody: 37:53

Well, I'll try to find some of these pictures too, in reference and I'll link to them in the episode description.

Tali: 37:59

Well, and I wouldn't go as far to say that, you know, we're trying to advocate here for like, you know, if you wanna learn something, like could become a coach This just happened to be an arena where, I wanted to learn everything I could. Mm-hmm. and it just felt like the right decision to make, to be a coach. And

Cody: 38:18

teaching is a really valuable way to learn something though. And I think it's, I think so. I think it's really overlooked often. I can use drawing as another example. You know, I have drawn off and on throughout my life, but I've also tutored people on how to draw. And, and sometimes the, the process of helping people overcome visual blocks helps you to develop your own skills. Do you

Tali: 38:43

think it's because it's almost like through, or like by proxy you're having a beginner's mind? I think, you know, you're always having to look through someone else's perspective of like, how. Approaching something. I think that's one

Cody: 38:59

side of the coin. The other is that desire to stretch because I want to be a good coach. I wanna be a good teacher, which requires me to stretch myself to learn the material or the skill or whatever it is. I have to, I have to learn it and it's like I have to learn it for my student. So it's almost like an extra incentive for me to actually do the

Tali: 39:20

fucking work. Oh, it's a fire under your ass. For sure. I mean, I'm sure I've mentioned it already, but a huge reason that I think our pursuit of getting back in shape has been going so well. Like it really all started to click when we got to coaching again. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really felt like I needed it. Yeah. Like, just to have accountability for myself didn't feel like enough. Yeah.

Cody: 39:44

Yeah. Your fitness has really accelerated since you getting your first client here locally. Yeah, I've definitely seen that.

Tali: 39:51

I mean, we, we were living and breathing coaching. Yeah. That was life. And you were Coach Cody or Coach C and I'm coach t. Like those are, that's just who we were. Yeah. And you know, coming back into that arena, so much of it has like ATI or become unfamiliar and we're trying to rebuild it from the bottom. But it's definitely a huge motivation for me to walk that talk or whatever you were saying earlier. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We were talking about physicians. Like it really gets my ass in gear because it allows me to know what I'm talking about and to be able to speak from experience, which is by far the most potent to be able to speak about things theoretically doesn't really go far with me. And I'm gonna assume it doesn't go far with other people.

Cody: 40:36

Yeah. I'll listen to Greg Mccuen's podcast. Who is the author of the book that you and I are reading together? Essentialism. Okay. And he often at the beginning and the end of his podcast talks about how if you really want to retain something valuable from this podcast within the next 24 hours, teach it to somebody else. teach the concepts to somebody else. Ooh. And I think he's, he's onto something there, because you and I have just talked about a couple of, you know, like there's the motivation factor and then there's also the beginner's mind. But there's also something about just being able to de, to distill something well enough to be able to explain it to someone else means that you're really grasping it. And it kind of, I think is a signal for your brain of like, this is important. Like, if we're having to communicate it to somebody else, it must be fairly important. So let's retain this and let's, let's distill it and really

Tali: 41:31

understand it. You know, what's interesting is that when I did my new patient intake form at the doctor the other day, I just established care for the first time in like three years. They for some reason had asked, you know, how do you learn the best? And it was like by listening, by reading. And I think there was one other option and I was like none of these really? Yeah, well, no, that was not it. It was something else. But. I almost wish the question was like, how do you retain information the best? Mm-hmm. I, that's how I like to think of learning or understanding is like, how well am I internalizing that? Yeah. And coaching by far has been the most potent for me. I need to like be all up in it. I need to do the work Yeah. In order to be an effective coach. And it's also the same in the other direction where I need to teach it and explain it to somebody else, see that click for them in their movement or pursuit or whatever. And then it really solidifies for me, and which I think is cool. Like, it's such a collaborative experience.

Cody: 42:35

Yeah. That's a beautiful way to put it. Because your, your students become teachers in a way. Yes. For you. Yeah. Oh

Tali: 42:42

yeah. I, I think my c my athletes know that I need them as much as they need me. Mm-hmm. it's definitely a collaborative thing.

Cody: 42:50

Yeah. That kind of brings up a point about our new business model. And I do wanna just as a side note here as you're listening to this, if you've heard past episodes, you may have heard us mentioning business models that keep coming up And I just want to explain that it's not because we're flaky, it's just that the way to launch a new business is a little bit different than what you see on television or like survivorship bias of successful businesses, which is I've got this great product idea, so I'm gonna develop it and then market it and then sell it and then I'm successful. And that's not a great way to launch a new business. A better way is to go ahead and have an idea and then test it by doing it, like get it out there in the marketplace as fast as possible, and then if it doesn't sell or sells poorly or whatever, You either tweak it or change it all together. And so it's kind of like you, you can't steer a parked car. So we're get the car moving first and then you can begin to change directions. So if you've heard past episodes, you've heard us talking about different business things that we're starting that we have not. And the reason is that we've niched down our market even more. And so we're gonna be coaching exclusively couples online and not just in fitness, but also in their relationship. So it's communication and connection practices in addition to their fitness and nutrition. So that's what we're working on currently. And the reason I circled back around to this finally is that I'm excited about that because you and I have so many great practices already that we do in our relationship, and we're very intentional with our relationship mm-hmm. but now having students follow some of the things that you and I do. makes me really excited because I know that's gonna help keep us sort of like our relationship tuned up, if you will, for for months and years to come because we will, we will feel that sort of coaching responsibility to be walking the walk Yes. And do it. And it's stay

Tali: 45:03

dialed in. Yeah. It's cyclical. It's symbiotic. I think it makes a lot of sense. I did pull up a photo of me and one of my coaches from way back when Jean Ann. Jean Anne, you're the best. I'll have to, I'll have to tag her cuz she and I are still in contact. But this is with Greg Glassman in 2014. This is actually the second time I met him. Oh, okay. It appears that I had gotten rid of a bunch of photos of my ex-boyfriend and I on Instagram, and so I guess that had to be one of the photos to go probably. So I'm gonna save this and I'm, I'm gonna gonna send it to you. Yeah. But yes, me and. Glassman The Glassman is how it was titled there or captioned. Gosh, looking back at these old photos are so fun. Look at this. This is me taking a nap on a whole bunch of bumper plates. I've seen that one between shifts. It's so good. Yeah. Anybody who's coach CrossFit out there, you know that the schedule blows. It's so you gotta squeeze your naps in wherever you can

Cody: 46:05

and it, I've slept in the gym so many times I've lost count. Really? Oh yeah.

Tali: 46:12

This was my first weightlifting meat ever. Wow. Yeah. You're so young.

Cody: 46:16

I know.

Tali: 46:19

Oh, this is that time that I got all that blood taken and they couldn't get it. Oh, isn't that so funny? Yeah. Okay. This will be fun to look through. You wanna give some backstory here? Yeah, why not? So, I was just saying that I got, you know, I established care and I got some blood work done that was after six attempts just this week. So, Success today. Mm-hmm. Right? She poked me two different times. Yep. I went to the clinic and they looked at me and they're like we're not confident we can do this. Then I went on the Friday before and got poked two different times, no success, and then one or two other times before that from the initial nurse who like took all my vitals. Yeah. That was same day. You had four same day. Four in the same day. Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a tricky poke. I don't like needles and they don't like me. And I, we were just looking deep into the archives of my Instagram for that Glassman photo and I guess there was a photo of the last time I had an incredible struggle with this and it took six different nurses on the same day to get my blood drawn. And of course it was inconclusive. So I guess that's the story of my life right now. Pin, pin, cushion. It's all good. It's all good. Oh, these are so cute. Look, the Olympic training Center. Nice. I hope that comes up at some point. I have no idea in what category that would fall into, but that was a really incredible time of my life.

Cody: 47:44

Yeah. Well, yeah, if you wanna send me anything to link to in the notes now do it. Cause I will, you're gonna lose that. It's, it's too far back to find again. Nah. Anything else on this whole, like coaches versus athlete or teacher versus student role situation?

Tali: 48:00

I mean, I think it's a good takeaway that even if you are naturally good at something and you are intending to teach others, you have to learn to become a teacher. Yes. You know, some people teach naturally like that in and of itself is a skill that can come naturally to folks. Yeah. But thinking about teaching as a skill is super crucial. You know, really thinking about the way that you convey information. And that can be true in relationships. That doesn't even have to be in teaching. I just think that the way that we speak and. The way that we approach others when we want them to understand something or understand us requires tact. And I've had so many different coaches in the past, like whether it was a weightlifting coach or a CrossFit coach, you know, when you're working in CrossFit you usually have like many different coaches depending on when you go. But with weightlifting you usually work with just one or two. And I've had so many great coaches and they all differ in their greatness. Mm-hmm. and maybe we should just finish by saying like, a shout out to some coaches that we really admire or like really learned from. Mm-hmm.

Cody: 49:11

Well, I, I just want to reiterate a little bit of what you're saying, cuz I think it can be summed up with empathy in, in one word, but. to be a great teacher, a great coach or mentor or whatever, I think requires some understanding that people don't always think the way you do for sure. And so they're not gonna learn the way that you do. But that doesn't mean that they're not capable of performing or outperforming you. Mm-hmm. Hmm. right. So I think,

Tali: 49:40

yeah, don't be weird about it. I think part of

Cody: 49:42

being, I think part of being a good teacher, mentor coach is to understand that people might need to hear things in different ways. And so if the only way you know how to explain something is the way you learned it or the way that relates to you, sorry to say you're probably not a great teacher, you know, that's your skillset in your knowledge base. But to be able to convey it to other people, you have to be able to come at it from different, a different angles. Yeah. Different ways. And to not build shame into that, because, It's just a sort of biodiversity situation where people obtain skills and knowledge in different ways.

Tali: 50:25

Yeah. You know, it would be cool. I wonder if they did this in your CrossFit cert too. Cuz it sounds like the second one is way more interesting than the first. I never did my second one. I'm actually gonna check in on my certification Soon as we're done here. I wanna know if it's still valid cuz not Alex expired. I

Cody: 50:40

think mine expired

Tali: 50:41

last year. Mine might not have been cause I had to redo it. Remember? Oh, right when I was working for pj, so I'm like potentially right at the cutoff, like five years. Anyway, I'm wondering if they had a Dr. An exercise where you had to say the same cue in like five different ways.

Cody: 50:58

Mm. I do remember something along those lines. I think it was more a little bit more broad than that. Like to get somebody moving in a squat for or whatever. You might have like five different cues to get them to correct something. But it does, it wasn't like specific as far as like their knee positioning, for instance. It wasn't like five cues for that one thing, but it was like five cues for the

Tali: 51:30

squat. Well, that's why I'm wondering about, even just for the one thing, I feel like there's so many different ways to say the same thing. Yeah. And they don't resonate with people in the same way. I think I've mentioned even on this podcast how there was there were so many times where I had coaches telling me to push my knees back right in a lift. And I was like, what the fuck does that even mean? Like, why am I thinking about my knees? Yeah. And then someone said like, keep your shoulders over the bar, and it would produce the same results, but it was a different focus. But that avenue I could take pushing my knees. I'm not thinking about that. Yeah. At all. Yeah. it's such an odd thing to think about. Yeah. But you hear it all the time. It must be making sense to somebody. Yeah.

Cody: 52:11

I mean, there's quite a few cues that I've picked up over the years like that. Like if you're squatting and you're, your knees should be sort of pressing to the outside of the squat, like laterally side to side. And so some people are like, well, widen your stance. Or like, or split the floor apart. Push your knees. I was getting to that. That's, sorry you're too far down the road. Sorry. Sorry, sorry. It's like push your knees apart, push your knees to the outside and then finally, like you were just said, is like, it's like a much more visual and tactile feel of like, press your feet into the floor and try to rip it in half. Like pull the, push the floor apart with your feet and that produces, you know, your knees to like go outward from there. Yeah. Cause you're putting the outward pressure.

Tali: 52:53

I love figuring out those, what I call sensory specific cues. Yeah. I like to think that that might be more universal. Yes, people are going to hear things in different ways, but I try to like put the feeling into words as much as possible. And I remember one that I had also developed that I was really excited about for pull-ups to try to bring your hands together, like trying to bend the bar. Mm-hmm. down, kind of like they do with a PVC pipe on an overhead squat. Kind of the same concept. Mm-hmm. like trying to bring your hands together and that activates the lots. It's just, just does the trick sometimes. Yeah. Oh man. I'm excited about coaching now, but I really think that we should shout out to a couple of great

Cody: 53:36

coaches. Okay. Well, a couple that I met early on in a couple of different certifications that I

Tali: 53:42

went to. Why don't we do like one in one, like bounce back and forth.

53:45

Okay.

Cody: 53:45

Well Todd Whitman, your CrossFit CU crush, he's so

Tali: 53:50

hot. I wonder what he is up to.

Cody: 53:51

And I I'm gonna say too, even though you said one in one, because these guys were always working together, and that's Adrian Bosman, Adrian Bosman and Todd Whitman were often working together and they both have a really amazing way for describing movement in the way that you were just talking about as far as what it should feel like when you're doing it. Right. And their amu, their communication style was not only just next level, but they both did it with a lot of grace and humility. Like they didn't make you feel like a dumb ass if you weren't getting something right. No,

Tali: 54:24

they were so, they were such sweet men.

Cody: 54:26

Yeah, they were just really kind. They were generous and they were empathetic and. And amazing communicators. I mean, they could make you understand something with the simple, simple cues and a great eye. So yeah, lots of admiration for both of those guys as coaches.

Tali: 54:44

He's so hot. Still just looking at his Instagram. Goodness. I think I've already given a shout out to Jay Teeter before I worked with him for a really short time. Mm-hmm. But the way he conveyed information was very sensory specific. There's a cue that he gave me that I just gave to my client the other day. And it just really stayed with me because I think it was so, so well said. And also, An experience that every lifter probably goes through and needs to overcome. And so what can happen sometimes when a lift is feeling, especially heavy off the floor, you have a tendency to wanna rush it. You don't really realize that that's what's happening, but you kind of try to outpace the lift to, you know, you feel like you have to do more and more and more in order to like beat this heavy weight. And so what that can do is it can rush the lift. And so you don't actually hit all of your positions, therefore your mechanics are no longer they're not efficient. Yeah. They're not efficient and they're not being applied correctly to the, to the bar. And it's gonna make the bar not move in the way that you want it to. And so he had told me, you know, you have to respect the weight of the bar. Like get acquainted with the weight of the bar. Mm-hmm. don't, don't try to. Fake it, I guess. Like you have to feel the weight of the bar. Yeah.

Cody: 56:16

Don't wish that it was lighter. Just like get used to how it feels being heavy. Well, it's supposed to be heavy. It's okay. It's

Tali: 56:21

supposed to be heavy, and you're supposed to have enough faith in your technique that even if it does feel heavy, things will work out because you're committing to your technique. Yeah. A lot of people, when they feel a bar is heavy, there's kind of a moment of panic where they will throw all their technique out the window because they're fucking fighting this thing. They're battling this bar. Yeah. And so that can mistakenly create errors in your execution, you know, resulting in a missed lift. And so he said, let it feel heavy in your hands. Yeah, it's okay. And I was able to repeat the lift that felt so heavy and nail it. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And I worked, like I said, I worked with him for a very short time, but he's super brilliant.

Cody: 57:03

Yeah. I got to work with him as well, but it was for a six week like weightlifting course that he was coaching. Mm-hmm. And he's the one that taught me the, all those rack supports that you hate so bad. But I, I have a lot of my clients do those rack supports, you know, where you're getting under the bar in like an overhead squat position from the bottom up mm-hmm. and then pressing it out of the rack. Like he's gross. He's the one that taught me all that. So you can, you can thank him for that. But yeah, he's a great coach. Super knowledgeable.

Tali: 57:32

Yeah. Another coach that I really respect Zigman, small certs. He was the weightlifting coach for USA weightlifting at the Olympic Training Center. And I was just saying, I hope it comes up at some point, but I was lucky enough to. Be able to train at the Olympic Training Center for a couple weeks at a training camp however many years ago, 10 years ago now. Oh, gross it's such a long time ago. Yeah, a good long while now. But he coached with sounds, he, I believe is of Polish descent. And so a lot of his queuing were sounds that were supposed to imitate the pace and power of a certain lift. And so I would do that with my clients too, cuz it totally makes sense Sometimes, like, you know, a lift is slow off the ground and then there's kind of a pop, so he. make noises like, Hmm. Pop you know, like slow, fast. Yeah. Like to get you the idea of what the pace of the lift should be in order to execute it as efficiently as possible or to create as much power as possible. And I just thought that was such a cool tool. Like this is a man who is an immigrant to the states, probably has to fill that gap somehow. He was, you know, he spoke Greek English, his accent was crazy thick. Mm-hmm. But he had another tool of coaching that I had never seen or heard before, which I thought was brilliant. So I've totally used that before when I am noticing that things like timing or sometimes like people don't execute lifts with like power. They just kind of like do it and it's kind of slow and soft. Mm-hmm. But when I'm really wanting them to like stick the landing, like you have to make the sounds that are gonna elicit those responses. And I learned that from Ziggy. Yeah. That's great.

Cody: 59:31

Yeah. shall we wrap up? Sure. You wanna keep going on

Tali: 59:35

this I, I mean, I can talk about great coaches forever. But yeah, I think that's an okay place to stop, but yeah, teaching as a learning tool is super cool. Super cool.

Cody: 59:47

Yep, I agree. Well I don't think I pulled up anything to tease future episodes, but you know, they're gonna be cool. Hope so. So, yeah. So join us next. Sounds good. Love you. Love you.

Tali: 1:00:04

This episode was produced by Tali Zabari and Cody Limbaugh. Check out our writing, coaching services and home studying adventures at live all your life.com. For show notes, resources mentioned, or to submit a question or contribution, click on the podcast tab.